From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: base Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:57:43 +0300 Message-ID: <83d3t4mtjs.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20100822120642.GA1794@muc.de> <87bp8uzu9d.fsf@mithlond.arda> <871v9o7dmf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wrrg5rzg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87r5ho5gyr.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87hbij6hib.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k4nf7ezq.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878w3v7dd2.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83wrrfmljv.fsf@gnu.org> <87d3t75crc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739u265eq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83sk22msp4.fsf@gnu.org> <87zkw94qn4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87sk204nme.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1282892154 4562 80.91.229.12 (27 Aug 2010 06:55:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 06:55:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, miles@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 27 08:55:53 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oosqu-0002ua-SV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:55:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42088 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oosqu-0004LW-6m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:55:52 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=43592 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oosqk-0004LK-Mb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:55:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oosqf-0002ES-IE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:55:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:37950) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oosqf-0002EI-AT; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:55:37 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L7S00100TS3AA00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:55:35 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.186.164]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L7S001H2TWMAD00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:55:35 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87sk204nme.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:129282 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: miles@gnu.org, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:43:05 +0900 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Thanks. However, what you wrote just shows once again that we are > > talking on two very different levels. Your "user" is actually a > > hacker who wants to know and understand a lot about low-level > > details of the tool's operation. > > No. I'm saying that the project needs a few users who understand at > that level, and that therefore it is important to have such a model. This is the first time this particular issue comes up. Until now, the views with which I was arguing seemed to tell that _any_ user needs such an understanding to use a dVCS safely and efficiently. > I apologize for not making it clear that I do understand that average > users can do fine without deep understanding (but with competent > guidance). That's okay, at least we are now in partial agreement. Not sure others agree, though. > My main point is that somebody like you who has intervened in the > process of recommending workflows really should have a good model. Maybe. I simply don't yet have enough experience to make my own opinion. Neither does Emacs as a project, I think. So I will take your word for it, for now. > > quite efficiently (no thanks to bzr docs), without having a > > slightest idea how it represents the history DAG or what are all > > those files in the .bzr subdirectories of my repository. > > Er, Eli, I didn't mention any of those files (or their analogs in > git), and I don't recall the docs I pointed to describing them, > although it did mention their existence. The docs you pointed to do describe them. This page, for example: http://book.git-scm.com/1_git_directory_and_working_directory.html > > Contrary to what you say, these are, IMO, private data, not public > > data; for example, if bzr changes its repository format, I as a > > user don't care as long as there's a simple way of upgrading to the > > new format. > > But the point is that often there isn't a simple way. In fact, on one > of my platforms I'm currently stuck without a usable bzr because > Ubuntu Jaunty provides bzr 1.13, and that doesn't do format 2a, which > is required for Launchpad. Upgrading Ubuntu is not an easy option for > me, either. Well, when things get broken, you need a technician to fix them. Most users aren't technicians. Projects shouldn't choose tools that become broken or could break the project to the degree that most users couldn't fix without calling a technician.