* Emacs as WM @ 2014-08-08 20:35 Matthew Plant 2014-08-08 20:51 ` John Yates ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-08 20:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org I was curious about what people on this list thought about application embedding in Emacs. To a degree this is already supported with ansi term, but this obviously doesn't extend to GUI applications. For those of you familiar with Plan 9, think of how programs use the window the terminal they're launched in; embedding GUI apps in Emacs would force the program to run in a window owned by Emacs and fitted into a buffer. The reason why I bring this up is because it would be relatively easy to do in a way that's not very platform agnostic. It's really easy to replace the X libarary (forgive me for not using proper nomenclature; it'd lengthen this email tenfold) window creation functions with one that extends contol over the window. The degree of integration can be controlled by the number of replaced functions. If drawn text wants to be handled specially, those functions would be replaced. Some method can be specified for switching between emacs and the application controlling user input. This has some obvious advantages; for one, Emacs automatically subsumes all editors, including more WYSIWYG editors. Not only that, but Emacs essentially becomes a window manager, which I personally would love. Because some apps, particular web browsers, do not always require special handling of the keyboard, switching between regular Emacs buffers and the special app buffers would be generally seamless. I could imagine myself typing away in one Emacs buffer, momentarily moving to the mouse to click throught some online doxygen in my web browser in the buffer to the right. There are also a lot of disadvantages to this. For one, the applications would be pretty buggy without some effort to re-implement X functions. Also, my co-worker points out that this would be incongrous with the current capabilities of Emacs, one of which is the easy transfer of text betwixt buffers. Getting these two features to work harmoniously would be kind of difficult; lots of wrappers to X/Gnome/whatever text writing functions would have to be made. However, copy and paste would work (I'm guessing) out of the box. I suppose it all boils down to what people want with the future of Emacs. Personally, I would love to turn on my computer and have Emacs be there every step of the way. I genuinely think that Emacs is a great full interface to an OS. It is not a full OS however and never should be, which is why I like this idea as an in-between. -M ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-08 20:35 Emacs as WM Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-08 20:51 ` John Yates 2014-08-08 23:04 ` Feng Shu 2014-08-08 22:49 ` joakim 2014-08-11 1:44 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: John Yates @ 2014-08-08 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Plant; +Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2772 bytes --] Personally I regularly have the opposite itch: wanting to replace emacs's frustrating window management with an external tiling WM (in my case awesome). /john On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Matthew Plant <maplant2@illinois.edu> wrote: > I was curious about what people on this list thought about application > embedding in Emacs. To a degree this is already supported with ansi > term, but this obviously doesn't extend to GUI applications. For those > of you familiar with Plan 9, think of how programs use the window the > terminal they're launched in; embedding GUI apps in Emacs would force > the program to run in a window owned by Emacs and fitted into a buffer. > > The reason why I bring this up is because it would be relatively easy to > do in a way that's not very platform agnostic. It's really easy to > replace the X libarary (forgive me for not using proper nomenclature; > it'd lengthen this email tenfold) window creation functions with one > that extends contol over the window. The degree of integration can be > controlled by the number of replaced functions. If drawn text wants to > be handled specially, those functions would be replaced. Some method can > be specified for switching between emacs and the application controlling > user input. > > This has some obvious advantages; for one, Emacs automatically subsumes > all editors, including more WYSIWYG editors. Not only that, but Emacs > essentially becomes a window manager, which I personally would > love. Because some apps, particular web browsers, do not always require > special handling of the keyboard, switching between regular Emacs > buffers and the special app buffers would be generally seamless. I could > imagine myself typing away in one Emacs buffer, momentarily moving to > the mouse to click throught some online doxygen in my web browser in the > buffer to the right. > > There are also a lot of disadvantages to this. For one, the applications > would be pretty buggy without some effort to re-implement X > functions. Also, my co-worker points out that this would be incongrous > with the current capabilities of Emacs, one of which is the easy > transfer of text betwixt buffers. Getting these two features to work > harmoniously would be kind of difficult; lots of wrappers to > X/Gnome/whatever text writing functions would have to be made. However, > copy and paste would work (I'm guessing) out of the box. > > I suppose it all boils down to what people want with the future of > Emacs. Personally, I would love to turn on my computer and have Emacs be > there every step of the way. I genuinely think that Emacs is a great > full interface to an OS. It is not a full OS however and never should > be, which is why I like this idea as an in-between. > > -M > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3320 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-08 20:51 ` John Yates @ 2014-08-08 23:04 ` Feng Shu 2014-08-11 8:19 ` Samuel El-Borai 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Feng Shu @ 2014-08-08 23:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org> writes: > Personally I regularly have the opposite itch: wanting to replace > emacs's frustrating window management with an external tiling WM (in > my case awesome). I use stumpwm, which is like emacs. > > /john > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Matthew Plant <maplant2@illinois.edu> > wrote: > > I was curious about what people on this list thought about > application > embedding in Emacs. To a degree this is already supported with > ansi > term, but this obviously doesn't extend to GUI applications. For > those > of you familiar with Plan 9, think of how programs use the window > the > terminal they're launched in; embedding GUI apps in Emacs would > force > the program to run in a window owned by Emacs and fitted into a > buffer. > > The reason why I bring this up is because it would be relatively > easy to > do in a way that's not very platform agnostic. It's really easy to > replace the X libarary (forgive me for not using proper > nomenclature; > it'd lengthen this email tenfold) window creation functions with > one > that extends contol over the window. The degree of integration can > be > controlled by the number of replaced functions. If drawn text > wants to > be handled specially, those functions would be replaced. Some > method can > be specified for switching between emacs and the application > controlling > user input. > > This has some obvious advantages; for one, Emacs automatically > subsumes > all editors, including more WYSIWYG editors. Not only that, but > Emacs > essentially becomes a window manager, which I personally would > love. Because some apps, particular web browsers, do not always > require > special handling of the keyboard, switching between regular Emacs > buffers and the special app buffers would be generally seamless. I > could > imagine myself typing away in one Emacs buffer, momentarily moving > to > the mouse to click throught some online doxygen in my web browser > in the > buffer to the right. > > There are also a lot of disadvantages to this. For one, the > applications > would be pretty buggy without some effort to re-implement X > functions. Also, my co-worker points out that this would be > incongrous > with the current capabilities of Emacs, one of which is the easy > transfer of text betwixt buffers. Getting these two features to > work > harmoniously would be kind of difficult; lots of wrappers to > X/Gnome/whatever text writing functions would have to be made. > However, > copy and paste would work (I'm guessing) out of the box. > > I suppose it all boils down to what people want with the future of > Emacs. Personally, I would love to turn on my computer and have > Emacs be > there every step of the way. I genuinely think that Emacs is a > great > full interface to an OS. It is not a full OS however and never > should > be, which is why I like this idea as an in-between. > > -M -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-08 23:04 ` Feng Shu @ 2014-08-11 8:19 ` Samuel El-Borai 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Samuel El-Borai @ 2014-08-11 8:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Feng Shu; +Cc: Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4262 bytes --] Other projects of the same kind: Guile-WM (Guile scheme) ------------------------------------- From the README: "Guile-WM is a framework for creating an X window manager (or any other X application, really) and a set of useful modules designed for that purpose. [...] Guile-WM relies /heavily/ on its user init file. In fact, it won't do anything on its own without one. The intention is to provide something 100% configurable." Link: https://github.com/mwitmer/guile-wm # The Deep Space Window Manager (Common Lisp) From the README: "DSWM is a fork of StumpWM, so have most of all features, which have StumpWM, but it designed for better usability and better integration with emacs." Link: https://github.com/dss-project/dswm You can also read a discussion about those here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8160968 2014-08-09 1:04 GMT+02:00 Feng Shu <tumashu@gmail.com>: > John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org> writes: > > > Personally I regularly have the opposite itch: wanting to replace > > emacs's frustrating window management with an external tiling WM (in > > my case awesome). > > I use stumpwm, which is like emacs. > > > > > /john > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Matthew Plant <maplant2@illinois.edu> > > wrote: > > > > I was curious about what people on this list thought about > > application > > embedding in Emacs. To a degree this is already supported with > > ansi > > term, but this obviously doesn't extend to GUI applications. For > > those > > of you familiar with Plan 9, think of how programs use the window > > the > > terminal they're launched in; embedding GUI apps in Emacs would > > force > > the program to run in a window owned by Emacs and fitted into a > > buffer. > > > > The reason why I bring this up is because it would be relatively > > easy to > > do in a way that's not very platform agnostic. It's really easy to > > replace the X libarary (forgive me for not using proper > > nomenclature; > > it'd lengthen this email tenfold) window creation functions with > > one > > that extends contol over the window. The degree of integration can > > be > > controlled by the number of replaced functions. If drawn text > > wants to > > be handled specially, those functions would be replaced. Some > > method can > > be specified for switching between emacs and the application > > controlling > > user input. > > > > This has some obvious advantages; for one, Emacs automatically > > subsumes > > all editors, including more WYSIWYG editors. Not only that, but > > Emacs > > essentially becomes a window manager, which I personally would > > love. Because some apps, particular web browsers, do not always > > require > > special handling of the keyboard, switching between regular Emacs > > buffers and the special app buffers would be generally seamless. I > > could > > imagine myself typing away in one Emacs buffer, momentarily moving > > to > > the mouse to click throught some online doxygen in my web browser > > in the > > buffer to the right. > > > > There are also a lot of disadvantages to this. For one, the > > applications > > would be pretty buggy without some effort to re-implement X > > functions. Also, my co-worker points out that this would be > > incongrous > > with the current capabilities of Emacs, one of which is the easy > > transfer of text betwixt buffers. Getting these two features to > > work > > harmoniously would be kind of difficult; lots of wrappers to > > X/Gnome/whatever text writing functions would have to be made. > > However, > > copy and paste would work (I'm guessing) out of the box. > > > > I suppose it all boils down to what people want with the future of > > Emacs. Personally, I would love to turn on my computer and have > > Emacs be > > there every step of the way. I genuinely think that Emacs is a > > great > > full interface to an OS. It is not a full OS however and never > > should > > be, which is why I like this idea as an in-between. > > > > -M > > -- > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7837 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-08 20:35 Emacs as WM Matthew Plant 2014-08-08 20:51 ` John Yates @ 2014-08-08 22:49 ` joakim 2014-08-11 1:44 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: joakim @ 2014-08-08 22:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Plant; +Cc: Emacs developers Matthew Plant <maplant2@illinois.edu> writes: > I was curious about what people on this list thought about application > embedding in Emacs. To a degree this is already supported with ansi > term, but this obviously doesn't extend to GUI applications. For those > of you familiar with Plan 9, think of how programs use the window the > terminal they're launched in; embedding GUI apps in Emacs would force > the program to run in a window owned by Emacs and fitted into a buffer. Please see the Emacs Xwidget project, which has a somewhat rambling overview here: http://www.verona.se/thoughts/2013/10/24_xwidget-emacs.html > > The reason why I bring this up is because it would be relatively easy to > do in a way that's not very platform agnostic. It's really easy to > replace the X libarary (forgive me for not using proper nomenclature; > it'd lengthen this email tenfold) window creation functions with one > that extends contol over the window. The degree of integration can be > controlled by the number of replaced functions. If drawn text wants to > be handled specially, those functions would be replaced. Some method can > be specified for switching between emacs and the application controlling > user input. > > This has some obvious advantages; for one, Emacs automatically subsumes > all editors, including more WYSIWYG editors. Not only that, but Emacs > essentially becomes a window manager, which I personally would > love. Because some apps, particular web browsers, do not always require > special handling of the keyboard, switching between regular Emacs > buffers and the special app buffers would be generally seamless. I could > imagine myself typing away in one Emacs buffer, momentarily moving to > the mouse to click throught some online doxygen in my web browser in the > buffer to the right. > > There are also a lot of disadvantages to this. For one, the applications > would be pretty buggy without some effort to re-implement X > functions. Also, my co-worker points out that this would be incongrous > with the current capabilities of Emacs, one of which is the easy > transfer of text betwixt buffers. Getting these two features to work > harmoniously would be kind of difficult; lots of wrappers to > X/Gnome/whatever text writing functions would have to be made. However, > copy and paste would work (I'm guessing) out of the box. > > I suppose it all boils down to what people want with the future of > Emacs. Personally, I would love to turn on my computer and have Emacs be > there every step of the way. I genuinely think that Emacs is a great > full interface to an OS. It is not a full OS however and never should > be, which is why I like this idea as an in-between. > > -M > -- Joakim Verona ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-08 20:35 Emacs as WM Matthew Plant 2014-08-08 20:51 ` John Yates 2014-08-08 22:49 ` joakim @ 2014-08-11 1:44 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-11 7:33 ` document sharing (was Re: Emacs as WM) Nic Ferrier 2014-08-11 14:36 ` Emacs as WM Stefan Monnier 2 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-11 1:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Plant; +Cc: emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I'd like Emacs to do word processing and be able to share documents with other users through a P2P mechanism. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* document sharing (was Re: Emacs as WM) 2014-08-11 1:44 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-11 7:33 ` Nic Ferrier 2014-08-11 14:36 ` Emacs as WM Stefan Monnier 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Nic Ferrier @ 2014-08-11 7:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel, Matthew Plant Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > I'd like Emacs to do word processing and be able to share documents > with other users through a P2P mechanism. I am going to look into the webrtc protocols to see if Emacs could support them and implement some document sharing on that (if it can be done). You talked before about Word Processing, it doesn't mean much to me anymore. I associate it with printing documents, not electronic transfer. Do you mean something different from that? Nic ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-11 1:44 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-11 7:33 ` document sharing (was Re: Emacs as WM) Nic Ferrier @ 2014-08-11 14:36 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-12 3:15 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-11 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: emacs-devel, Matthew Plant > I'd like Emacs to do word processing I like LaTeX (and its Emacs support packages) for that. > and be able to share documents with other users through > a P2P mechanism. Not sue what you mean by that. If you mean "on the fly", GNU ELPA has Rudel which lets you share the contents of a buffer between different Emacs sessions via TCP connections. Otherwise, you can share by pushing to VCS repositories, most of whom can happen via SSH so don't need any centralized server. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-11 14:36 ` Emacs as WM Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-12 3:15 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-12 13:59 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-12 3:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I'd like Emacs to do word processing I like LaTeX (and its Emacs support packages) for that. Word processing is what LibreOffice does. It means you see the formatted text, edit the formatted text, and save the formatted text in a format such as ODF. > and be able to share documents with other users through > a P2P mechanism. Not sue what you mean by that. If you mean "on the fly", GNU ELPA has Rudel which lets you share the contents of a buffer between different Emacs sessions via TCP connections. Maybe that does the job I have in mind. That is nice. Can you email me its docs? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-12 3:15 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-12 13:59 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-13 3:58 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-12 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 >> I'd like Emacs to do word processing > I like LaTeX (and its Emacs support packages) for that. > Word processing is what LibreOffice does. Well, that depends on one's definition of word processing. For me, LaTeX is at least as much word processing as LibreOffice. But if you want WYSIWYG-style word processing, then no, there's still no such functionality in Emacs, AFAIK. > Not sue what you mean by that. If you mean "on the fly", GNU ELPA has > Rudel which lets you share the contents of a buffer between different > Emacs sessions via TCP connections. > Maybe that does the job I have in mind. That is nice. Can you email > me its docs? I don't see any obvious docs in its repository, sorry. I just quote the description from http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/rudel.html below. Stefan * INTRODUCTION Rudel is a collaborative editing environment for GNU Emacs. Its purpose is to share buffers with other users in order to edit the contents of those buffers collaboratively. Rudel supports multiple backends to enable communication with other collaborative editors using different protocols, though currently Obby (for use with the Gobby editor) is the only fully-functional one. Since Rudel is not an application, but an extension to Emacs, it is not started and used like most applications (not even Emacs applications like Gnus). Rudel mostly works in the background to change the behavior of the set of Emacs buffers for which it has been activated. The user interface consists of a set of key bindings, a menu entry and some visual status indicators, which are added to the text, header line and/or mode line of buffers for which Rudel has been activated. * GETTING STARTED Assuming Rudel has already been installed (see file:INSTALL) and auto loading has been set up, a global Rudel mode can be enabled as follows: : M-x global-rudel-minor-mode This will enable key bindings to list available backends, join, and host Rudel sessions (see below). To enable this mode permanently, the following fragment can be added to the Emacs initialization file (usually file:~/.emacs): #+BEGIN_SRC emacs-lisp (global-rudel-minor-mode 1) #+END_SRC ** LISTING BACKENDS : M-x rudel-backend-dump This command is available through the Rudel drop down menu. However, typically this is only used for debugging, since backends are chosen automatically when joining or hosting a session. ** JOINING A SESSION : M-x rudel-join-session [ C-c c j ] Depending on the installed Rudel backends, system environment and configuration, a number of questions will be asked, followed by an attempt to join session described by your answers. A typical example of the questions asked when joining a session may look like this: #+BEGIN_EXAMPLE Server: localhost RET Port (default 6522): RET Username: jan RET Color: light sky blue RET Use Encryption (y or n): n RET Global Password: RET User Password: RET #+END_EXAMPLE *IMPORTANT*: For sessions using the obby backend (like in the example above), the following restriction has to be taken into account: + When the server is Rudel inside an Emacs process: Encryption cannot be used currently in this case. Consequently the answer to the `Use Encryption (y or n):' prompt above has to be `n RET'. + When the server is a Gobby process: Gobby only supports encrypted connections. So the answer has to be `y RET' is this case. It is possible to configure frequently used sessions using the customization options `rudel-configured-sessions'. When one or more sessions are configured, `rudel-join-session' will provide choices like "my-configured-session", ... and "ask-protocol". Selecting "ask-protocol" invokes the behavior described above. Selecting one of the configured sessions connects to that session without asking for all the data. *** SAVING AND REUSING CONFIGURED SESSIONS Each session is described as a plist (a list of keys and values see Info node `(elisp)Property Lists'). Keys are specified using keywords and look like this: :host, :username, :color. Values are mostly strings, but symbols and numbers are possible as well. The following keys are required for any session: * :name (string) * :transport-backend (string or symbol) * :protocol-backend (string or symbol) Other keys are optional and depend on the selected backend. Required keys for which no value is specified will be prompted for when selecting the session. The values of the :name properties have to be distinct for all configured sessions. Additional keys required by most backends: * :host (string) * :port (number) * :username (string) * :color (string) Here is a complete example of customized values for the obby backend: * :name "sonian" * :transport-backend tcp * :protocol-backend obby * :host "sobby" * :port 6522 * :encryption t * :username "phil" * :color "white" * :global-password "" (this means "no password") * :user-password "" The programmatic equivalent looks like this: #+BEGIN_SRC emacs-lisp (add-to-list 'rudel-configured-sessions (list :name "myserver" :protocol-backend 'tcp :transport-backend 'obby :host "my.sobby-server.net" :username user-login-name ;; Use M-x list-colors-display to see color choices. :color "white" :encryption t :port 6522 ;; empty string means no password :global-password "" :user-password "")) #+END_SRC ** WORKING WITHIN A CONNECTED SESSION *** SHARING BUFFERS : M-x rudel-publish-buffer [ C-c c p ] Make a buffer available for subscription to peers in a collaborative editing session. : M-x rudel-subscribe [ C-c c s ] Subscribe to a document offered by a peer in a collaborative editing session. Invoking this command will prompt for the name of the document to subscribe to; TAB will show a list of available documents. : M-x rudel-unsubscribe [ C-c c u ] Detaches the current buffer from the collaborative editing session. The most recent version of the content will remain in the buffer but not be affected by future changes from other peers. *** CHANGING COLORS : M-x rudel-change-color [ C-c c c ] Change the color associated with your edits. *** LEAVING A SESSION : M-x rudel-end-session [ C-c c e ] Exit the current collaborative editing session. ** HOSTING A SESSION : M-x rudel-host-session [ C-c c h ] Note that the session starts out without any participating users (This is sometimes referred to as being a dedicated server). If you want to participate in the session you host, you have to join it as described above. * EXTRA MINOR MODES ** [Global] Header Subscriptions minor mode : rudel-header-subscriptions-minor-mode Displays subscribed users and information concerning their respective status in the header line of a buffer. : global-rudel-header-subscriptions-mode Enables or disables rudel-header-subscriptions-minor-mode automatically for all buffers. ** [Global] Mode line publish state minor mode : rudel-mode-line-publish-state-minor-mode Displays an indicator of the publication status of a buffer in its mode line. This indicator is similar to the read-only vs. read-write and the remote vs. local indicators. Publication is indicated by a the letter P. Buffers that are not published have an - indicator. : global-rudel-mode-line-publish-state-mode Enables or disables rudel-mode-line-publish-state-minor-mode automatically for all buffers. * REPORTING BUGS AND GETTING HELP ** EmacsWiki The EmacsWiki page about Rudel has [[http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Rudel#toc8][a section for feedback and questions]]. Feel free leave feedback or ask questions there. If a reply does not occur promptly, try writing to the mailing list of visiting the IRC channel. ** Issue Tracker Bugs can be reported using the issue tracker on the sourceforge project page: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=249139 ** Mailing List Another possibility for getting help and reporting problems is writing to the Rudel mailing list: http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=249139 ** IRC Channel Rudel users and developers can also be reached on the #rudel IRC channel on the freenode network: irc:/irc.freenode.net:6667/#rudel * KNOWN ISSUES + Publishing eshell buffers will cause your session to be disconnected since eshell disables the hooks that Rudel uses to catch changes to the buffer. As a workaround, you can use M-x ansi-term or another terminal emulator. * LICENSE This file is part of Rudel. Rudel is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. Rudel is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with Rudel. If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>. #+TITLE: Rudel README #+AUTHOR: Jan Moringen #+STARTUP: showeverything # Local variables: # mode: org # end: ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-12 13:59 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-13 3:58 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-13 12:53 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-13 3:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Rudel seems very useful. I think it should be documented in the Emacs manual and included as a standard part of Emacs. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-13 3:58 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-13 12:53 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-13 22:48 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-13 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 > Rudel seems very useful. I think it should be documented in the > Emacs manual and included as a standard part of Emacs. Could be, but it needs some serious loving for that. Currently it has no maintainer. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-13 12:53 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-13 22:48 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-14 2:43 ` Matthew Plant 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-13 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Would anyone like to do more work on Rudel? Pretty please? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-13 22:48 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-14 2:43 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-15 1:03 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-14 2:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel@gnu.org I could potentially help out; but is there really any work to be done on Rudel? Seems stable enough. -M On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Would anyone like to do more work on Rudel? > Pretty please? > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation > 51 Franklin St > Boston MA 02110 > USA > www.fsf.org www.gnu.org > Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. > Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-14 2:43 ` Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-15 1:03 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-15 2:59 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-15 1:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Plant; +Cc: monnier, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I could potentially help out; but is there really any work to be done on Rudel? Seems stable enough. Stefan, what's the work you think is needed on Rudel to include it standardly in Emacs? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-15 1:03 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-15 2:59 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-15 17:48 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-15 2:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: emacs-devel, Matthew Plant > I could potentially help out; but is there really any work to be > done on Rudel? Seems stable enough. > Stefan, what's the work you think is needed on Rudel > to include it standardly in Emacs? It should use open-network-stream's TLS support, for one. I found the handling of encryption rather annoying (from the user's view point), so improvements in this area are important. It needs some further documentation. It needs an active maintainer. IIUC the protocols it support might need to be revisited, since Gobby is rather dated and Rudel doesn't support more recent protocols. But FWIW I don't see the benefit of having it included in Emacs: So far its use has been rather marginal, so while I think it's a neat package (which is why I went to the trouble of including it in GNU ELPA), I'm not convinced it deserves to be bundled with Emacs. It's easy enough to install it via GNU ELPA. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-15 2:59 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-15 17:48 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-15 19:08 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-15 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] But FWIW I don't see the benefit of having it included in Emacs: You're thinking of it in temrs of convenience for Emacs users. I'm think of it as a base for attacking Google Drive. Google Drive's use has not been marginal, sad to say. Let's see what we can do to compete with it. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-15 17:48 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-15 19:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-16 2:19 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-16 3:06 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-15 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 > But FWIW I don't see the benefit of having it included in Emacs: > You're thinking of it in terms of convenience for Emacs users. > I'm think of it as a base for attacking Google Drive. I completely fail to see how Rudel can be a substitute for Google Drive. But then I don't know much about Google Drive. Yet any solution based on Emacs sounds like a non-starter, since most GNu/Linux users are not Emacs users. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-15 19:08 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-08-16 2:19 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-16 3:06 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-16 2:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Richard Stallman, emacs-devel@gnu.org [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 690 bytes --] Google docs is now google drive, so Richard is referring to competing with the web fronted to google drive. So not the hd dealership part of drive. -M On Friday, August 15, 2014, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: > > But FWIW I don't see the benefit of having it included in Emacs: > > You're thinking of it in terms of convenience for Emacs users. > > I'm think of it as a base for attacking Google Drive. > > I completely fail to see how Rudel can be a substitute for Google Drive. > But then I don't know much about Google Drive. Yet any solution based > on Emacs sounds like a non-starter, since most GNu/Linux users are not > Emacs users. > > > Stefan > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 960 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-15 19:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-16 2:19 ` Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-16 3:06 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-17 14:47 ` Ashton Kemerling 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-16 3:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel, maplant2 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I completely fail to see how Rudel can be a substitute for Google Drive. But then I don't know much about Google Drive. It is a server that lets various people edit the same document together. Previously called Google Docs. Yet any solution based on Emacs sounds like a non-starter, since most GNu/Linux users are not Emacs users. Most users want WYSIWYG word processing, and that's why I want Emacs to provide a way to do that. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-16 3:06 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-17 14:47 ` Ashton Kemerling 2014-08-18 1:07 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Ashton Kemerling @ 2014-08-17 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: maplant2, Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > I completely fail to see how Rudel can be a substitute for Google Drive. > But then I don't know much about Google Drive. > > It is a server that lets various people edit the same document together. > Previously called Google Docs. > > Yet any solution based > on Emacs sounds like a non-starter, since most GNu/Linux users are not > Emacs users. > > Most users want WYSIWYG word processing, and that's why I want > Emacs to provide a way to do that. I really don't see that ever happening. Google drive is used heavily in mixed editor environments, by people not familiar with more traditional editors, and in areas where editing or viewing on a computer other than your own (e.g. conference room machine or phone). In many ways, Google Drive is a more flexible replacement for MS Office, which in itself was used in a very different way from Emacs for 90%+ of the userbase. I'm sure that many of us in this group are a bit over the top using Emacs for everything, I for one read and write to this group with gnus, I think there is a danger in assuming that this is the standard use case. If Rudel is seeing marginal usage, then the only question is whether that is because Rudel simply is insufficient, or if it fundamentally isn't what the user base needs. -- Ashton Kemerling ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-17 14:47 ` Ashton Kemerling @ 2014-08-18 1:07 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-18 2:39 ` andres.ramirez 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-18 1:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ashton Kemerling; +Cc: maplant2, monnier, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] In many ways, Google Drive is a more flexible replacement for MS Office, which in itself was used in a very different way from Emacs for 90%+ of the userbase. This is exactly my point. I want Emacs to offer the facilities of an Office program. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-18 1:07 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-18 2:39 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-18 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 13:09 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-18 2:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: maplant2, emacs-devel, monnier, Ashton Kemerling Hi. org mode can do that job see: http://draketo.de/english/emacs/writing-papers-in-org-mode-acpd probably a simple tutorial could help a little bit more. I am writing letters with it. Also rudel is not "so used" cos nobody has used it for collaborating editing documents (buffers, or whatever). Also I see a different use case: Just when You want to share smth with somebody remotely, right now options: 1. gnu/screen 2. vnc, skype or something like that. I have not tried tox yet. the third option could be start emacs and evaluate this expression to see what i am editing remotely (connect as a rudel client to a host machine). Another more marginal option could be to share text parts among emacs sessions (daemons) without X. My personal case 2 emacs sessions because email is blocking your regular workflow (waiting for emacs 25 and multi processor emacs :) ). Best Regards At Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:07:04 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > In many ways, Google Drive is a more flexible replacement for MS Office, > which in itself was used in a very different way from Emacs for 90%+ of > the userbase. > > This is exactly my point. I want Emacs to offer the facilities of > an Office program. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation > 51 Franklin St > Boston MA 02110 > USA > www.fsf.org www.gnu.org > Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. > Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-18 2:39 ` andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-18 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-18 20:13 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-19 13:09 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-18 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: andres.ramirez; +Cc: ashtonkemerling, emacs-devel, rms, monnier, maplant2 > Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:39:51 -0500 > From: andres.ramirez <andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> > Cc: maplant2@illinois.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, > Ashton Kemerling <ashtonkemerling@gmail.com> > > org mode can do that job see: > http://draketo.de/english/emacs/writing-papers-in-org-mode-acpd But that's not WYSIWYG, is it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-18 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-18 20:13 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-18 20:54 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-18 20:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: ashtonkemerling, emacs-devel, rms, monnier, maplant2 No. It isn't. At Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:41:43 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:39:51 -0500 > > From: andres.ramirez <andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> > > Cc: maplant2@illinois.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, > > Ashton Kemerling <ashtonkemerling@gmail.com> > > > > org mode can do that job see: > > http://draketo.de/english/emacs/writing-papers-in-org-mode-acpd > > But that's not WYSIWYG, is it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-18 20:13 ` andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-18 20:54 ` Glenn Morris 2014-08-19 1:04 ` Ashton Kemerling 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2014-08-18 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel andres.ramirez wrote: >> > org mode can do that job see: >> > http://draketo.de/english/emacs/writing-papers-in-org-mode-acpd >> >> But that's not WYSIWYG, is it? Pretty sure this was all covered the last time this came up http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-11/msg00515.html (but I find the thread fairly unreadable) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-18 20:54 ` Glenn Morris @ 2014-08-19 1:04 ` Ashton Kemerling 2014-08-19 2:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Ashton Kemerling @ 2014-08-19 1:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel I think at this point Emacs is about as far from a WYSIWYG editor as you can get, and that is what attracts a fair amount of its users. Despite constant competitive pressure from prettier and more specialized editors like RubyMine, Eclipse, and similar; Emacs continues to survive due to the depth of its customizability and community. I guess its customizability means that there is nothing stopping anyone from making a WYSIWYG plugin, but I would be shocked if it got a lot of usage for two reasons: 1) A lot of the people choosing Emacs use it because it isn't WYSIWYG. 2) Most people who are a fan of WYSIWYG want a shallow learning curve with a shallow product. They aren't interested in dedicating lots of time to master a product that they might not use enough to justify it. But hey, I could be wrong. -- Ashton Kemerling ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 1:04 ` Ashton Kemerling @ 2014-08-19 2:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 4:56 ` Ashton Kemerling 2014-08-19 5:58 ` Tom 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-19 2:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ashton Kemerling; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Ashton Kemerling <ashtonkemerling@gmail.com> > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 19:04:08 -0600 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > I think at this point Emacs is about as far from a WYSIWYG editor as you > can get Not true. It's only not WYSIWYG when editing human-readable text. > 2) Most people who are a fan of WYSIWYG want a shallow learning curve > with a shallow product. If you ever used Office, you know that's about as far from truth as far can get. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 2:45 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-19 4:56 ` Ashton Kemerling 2014-08-19 5:58 ` Tom 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Ashton Kemerling @ 2014-08-19 4:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel Agree with you on office, which is why Google Docs (Drive, whatever) is taking over. -- Ashton Kemerling ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 2:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 4:56 ` Ashton Kemerling @ 2014-08-19 5:58 ` Tom 2014-08-19 14:56 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Tom @ 2014-08-19 5:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: > > > 2) Most people who are a fan of WYSIWYG want a shallow learning curve > > with a shallow product. > > If you ever used Office, you know that's about as far from truth as > far can get. > It's well known that most users of Office use only a fraction of its capabilities, mainly those which are accessible from toolbar icons and top level menus and do not even know about its advances features. So while Office is a very sophisticated product, most users prefer it because of the simple point and click interface which does not require much learning to use. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 5:58 ` Tom @ 2014-08-19 14:56 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 15:21 ` Tom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-19 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tom; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 05:58:20 +0000 (UTC) > > So while Office is a very sophisticated product, most users prefer > it because of the simple point and click interface which does > not require much learning to use. The same can be said about Emacs. In fact, our toolbar is much simpler than the MS-Office's "ribbons". So I think users prefer Office because it has capabilities that Emacs doesn't, and not because its "point and click" interface is easier than that of Emacs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 14:56 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-19 15:21 ` Tom 2014-08-19 15:39 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 15:48 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Tom @ 2014-08-19 15:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: > > So I think users prefer Office because it has capabilities that Emacs > doesn't, and not because its "point and click" interface is easier > than that of Emacs. > On Windows people prefer office also because it looks and behaves as any other application. So they prefer familiarity too and being familiar is also a big part of simplicity and ease of use. Emacs looks completely alien on Windows and its behavior is also alien. The most obvious example is copy/paste which is Ctrl-C/V on windows while emacs uses something else. There was a discussion about making Ctrl-C/V the default a while ago, but it was rejected because it goes against emacs standards. It does, but most users won't relearn basic keys just to use emacs which has no obvious advantages for them which would be worth it. WYSIWYG alone won't gain many new users while emacs stays so different in other UI points. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 15:21 ` Tom @ 2014-08-19 15:39 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 15:48 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-19 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tom; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:21:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: > > > > > So I think users prefer Office because it has capabilities that Emacs > > doesn't, and not because its "point and click" interface is easier > > than that of Emacs. > > > > On Windows people prefer office also because it looks and behaves as > any other application. So they prefer familiarity too and being > familiar is also a big part of simplicity and ease of use. > > Emacs looks completely alien on Windows and its behavior is also > alien. I disagree. > The most obvious example is copy/paste which is Ctrl-C/V on windows > while emacs uses something else. That's the only example. > WYSIWYG alone won't gain many new users while emacs stays so > different in other UI points. We won't know unless and until we try. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 15:21 ` Tom 2014-08-19 15:39 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-19 15:48 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2014-08-19 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> writes: > Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: > >> >> So I think users prefer Office because it has capabilities that Emacs >> doesn't, and not because its "point and click" interface is easier >> than that of Emacs. >> > > On Windows people prefer office also because it looks and behaves as > any other application. So they prefer familiarity too and being > familiar is also a big part of simplicity and ease of use. > > Emacs looks completely alien on Windows and its behavior is also > alien. > > The most obvious example is copy/paste which is Ctrl-C/V on windows > while emacs uses something else. > > There was a discussion about making Ctrl-C/V the default a while > ago, but it was rejected because it goes against emacs standards. > It does, but most users won't relearn basic keys just to use emacs > which has no obvious advantages for them which would be worth it. > > WYSIWYG alone won't gain many new users while emacs stays so > different in other UI points. Emacs will always remain a worse NotePad than NotePad. Most users won't use Emacs even when it tries masking itself as NotePad. Convincingly reinventing Emacs and its keybindings into a world of NotePads is nothing you can solve with enough handwaving. It's sort of like "can't we genetically engineer a womb into horseshoe crabs in order to have them more competitive with mammals?". -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-18 2:39 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-18 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-08-19 13:09 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-20 1:55 ` Alexis 2014-08-20 2:16 ` andres.ramirez 1 sibling, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-19 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: andres.ramirez; +Cc: maplant2, emacs-devel, monnier, ashtonkemerling [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Just when You want to share smth with somebody remotely, right now options: 1. gnu/screen 2. vnc, skype or something like that. I have not tried tox yet. Skype is nonfree software. It's not a solution, it's a problem. I don't know what VNC is; is it free software? How does it solve this problem? I have some idea what Tox does. How would Tox enable people to edit a document together? I do not see how it relates. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 13:09 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-20 1:55 ` Alexis 2014-08-20 2:16 ` andres.ramirez 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Alexis @ 2014-08-20 1:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Richard Stallman writes: > Skype is nonfree software. It's not a solution, it's a problem. Agreed. i feel that the most promising practical[1] alternative to Skype at this point is Jitsi, which is licensed under the LGPL 2.1: http://www.jitsi.org/ but it seems to me that the project needs a significant influx of contributors willing and able to fix bugs, implement features / feature requests, etc. Alexis. [1] "Practical" in the sense of, in my experience, being basically usable by non-technically-oriented users. Which is, unfortunately for alternatives to Skype, an area in which Skype excels. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-19 13:09 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-20 1:55 ` Alexis @ 2014-08-20 2:16 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-21 2:41 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-20 2:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: maplant2, emacs-devel, monnier, ashtonkemerling At Tue, 19 Aug 2014 09:09:24 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Just when You want to share smth with somebody remotely, right now options: > 1. gnu/screen > 2. vnc, skype or something like that. I have not tried tox yet. > > Skype is nonfree software. It's not a solution, it's a problem. > I don't know what VNC is; is it free software? How does it > solve this problem? Sure, It is not free software. > > I have some idea what Tox does. > How would Tox enable people to edit a document together? > I do not see how it relates. tox, lets You share your graphical desktop, among other things, It is alternative to the non free sofware app. VNC let You share your graphical desktop without using remote servers. It is GPL Rudel lets You share buffer(s). Emacs users could use Emacs+Rudel on places where tox or VNC were used before realizing about Rudel. On my opinion the main problem Rudel solves it's sharing a buffer. Before this thread a lot of people including me did not know about rudel existence and usability. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation > 51 Franklin St > Boston MA 02110 > USA > www.fsf.org www.gnu.org > Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. > Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-20 2:16 ` andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-21 2:41 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-21 2:59 ` andres.ramirez 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-21 2:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: andres.ramirez; +Cc: maplant2, emacs-devel, monnier, ashtonkemerling [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I have some idea what Tox does. > How would Tox enable people to edit a document together? > I do not see how it relates. tox, lets You share your graphical desktop, among other things, I am not sure what "share your graphical desktop" looks like, in practice. Does it mean that all the users are apparently typing at the same Emacs process? That would be rather a pain. Not as good as sharing a buffer. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-21 2:41 ` Richard Stallman @ 2014-08-21 2:59 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-21 6:15 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-21 20:33 ` Josh 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-21 2:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: maplant2, emacs-devel, monnier, ashtonkemerling Hi Richard. At Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:41:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > I have some idea what Tox does. > > How would Tox enable people to edit a document together? > > I do not see how it relates. > tox, lets You share your graphical desktop, among other things, > > I am not sure what "share your graphical desktop" looks like, > in practice. Does it mean that all the users are apparently > typing at the same Emacs process? That would be rather a pain. > Not as good as sharing a buffer. "share your graphical desktop" does not enable "collaborating editing", just one person edit or works with the desktop, and the other ones are just viewing It. Sharing a buffer is awesome. +1 Best Regards > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation > 51 Franklin St > Boston MA 02110 > USA > www.fsf.org www.gnu.org > Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. > Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-21 2:59 ` andres.ramirez @ 2014-08-21 6:15 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-22 9:48 ` Garreau, Alexandre 2014-08-21 20:33 ` Josh 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-21 6:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: andres.ramirez Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, ashtonkemerling@gmail.com It'd certainly be nice to have some way to share edits across emacs clients - one that functions as a minor mode on top of all major modes. That would be amazing! You could have an additional comments buffer that maps to lines that would be saved to everyone's disk. Code reviews could be made on the fly. I don't think there's a single programming environment that provides that. -M > On Aug 20, 2014, at 8:59 PM, "andres.ramirez" <andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> wrote: > > Hi Richard. > > At Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:41:55 -0400, > Richard Stallman wrote: >> >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >> >>> I have some idea what Tox does. >>> How would Tox enable people to edit a document together? >>> I do not see how it relates. >> tox, lets You share your graphical desktop, among other things, >> >> I am not sure what "share your graphical desktop" looks like, >> in practice. Does it mean that all the users are apparently >> typing at the same Emacs process? That would be rather a pain. >> Not as good as sharing a buffer. > > "share your graphical desktop" does not enable "collaborating editing", just one person edit or > works with the desktop, and the other ones are just viewing It. > > Sharing a buffer is awesome. +1 > > Best Regards >> >> -- >> Dr Richard Stallman >> President, Free Software Foundation >> 51 Franklin St >> Boston MA 02110 >> USA >> www.fsf.org www.gnu.org >> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. >> Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. >> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-21 6:15 ` Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-22 9:48 ` Garreau, Alexandre 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Garreau, Alexandre @ 2014-08-22 9:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matthew Plant Cc: ashtonkemerling@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, andres.ramirez, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org On 2014-08-21 at 08:15, Matthew Plant wrote: > It'd certainly be nice to have some way to share edits across emacs > clients - one that functions as a minor mode on top of all major > modes. That would be amazing! You could have an additional comments > buffer that maps to lines that would be saved to everyone's disk. Code > reviews could be made on the fly. I don't think there's a single > programming environment that provides that. Even more to have it use P2P and something with cryptography and DHTs, just like Tox… for the short term… then using GNUnet \o/ (and at this point not only collaborating editing using GNUnet, but also asynchronous communication with some new Gnus backend, some synchronous communication with some yet other Emacs IM client (after the semi-dozen of IRC clients and the XMPP client)). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs as WM 2014-08-21 2:59 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-21 6:15 ` Matthew Plant @ 2014-08-21 20:33 ` Josh 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Josh @ 2014-08-21 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: andres.ramirez Cc: ashtonkemerling, emacs-devel, rms, Stefan Monnier, maplant2 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 950 bytes --] On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:59 PM, andres.ramirez < andres.ramirez@kipuamutay.com> wrote: > At Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:41:55 -0400, > Richard Stallman wrote: > > > I have some idea what Tox does. > > > How would Tox enable people to edit a document together? > > > I do not see how it relates. > > tox, lets You share your graphical desktop, among other things, > > > > I am not sure what "share your graphical desktop" looks like, > > in practice. Does it mean that all the users are apparently > > typing at the same Emacs process? That would be rather a pain. > > Not as good as sharing a buffer. > > "share your graphical desktop" does not enable "collaborating editing", > just one person edit or > works with the desktop, and the other ones are just viewing It. > > Sharing a buffer is awesome. +1 Nic put together something along these lines last year that might be of interest: https://github.com/nicferrier/emacs-swarmhacker [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1620 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-08-22 9:48 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 42+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2014-08-08 20:35 Emacs as WM Matthew Plant 2014-08-08 20:51 ` John Yates 2014-08-08 23:04 ` Feng Shu 2014-08-11 8:19 ` Samuel El-Borai 2014-08-08 22:49 ` joakim 2014-08-11 1:44 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-11 7:33 ` document sharing (was Re: Emacs as WM) Nic Ferrier 2014-08-11 14:36 ` Emacs as WM Stefan Monnier 2014-08-12 3:15 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-12 13:59 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-13 3:58 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-13 12:53 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-13 22:48 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-14 2:43 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-15 1:03 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-15 2:59 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-15 17:48 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-15 19:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-08-16 2:19 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-16 3:06 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-17 14:47 ` Ashton Kemerling 2014-08-18 1:07 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-18 2:39 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-18 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-18 20:13 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-18 20:54 ` Glenn Morris 2014-08-19 1:04 ` Ashton Kemerling 2014-08-19 2:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 4:56 ` Ashton Kemerling 2014-08-19 5:58 ` Tom 2014-08-19 14:56 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 15:21 ` Tom 2014-08-19 15:39 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-08-19 15:48 ` David Kastrup 2014-08-19 13:09 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-20 1:55 ` Alexis 2014-08-20 2:16 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-21 2:41 ` Richard Stallman 2014-08-21 2:59 ` andres.ramirez 2014-08-21 6:15 ` Matthew Plant 2014-08-22 9:48 ` Garreau, Alexandre 2014-08-21 20:33 ` Josh
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git This is an external index of several public inboxes, see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror all data and code used by this external index.