* Stop fiddling with my preferences
@ 2014-11-23 15:35 Roland Lutz
2014-11-23 16:27 ` Eric S. Raymond
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Roland Lutz @ 2014-11-23 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
I've been using Emacs for quite a while, and I think it's a great program.
Sure, things work differently than in most newly-written GUI applications,
but at least for me, they work *better*.
For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of
Emacs, something in the behavior changed. I had to figure out each time
what it was that caused the change and how to compensate for it. This
usually took me an hour or more since it isn't easily documented and most
solutions suggested on the web have unwanted side-effects. Right now, the
compatibility section in my .emacs file reads:
(set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
(set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
(set 'select-active-regions nil)
(set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
(set 'delete-active-region nil)
(set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary
operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs? One of
the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be
worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs
any more, etc.
I'm not arguing about defaults (I think they shouldn't change without a
good reason--other than personal preference--either, but that's an
entirely different story) but that I don't want them to change once I've
got used to how Emacs works.
How about not changing the defaults but shipping an updated skeleton
.emacs file instead?
How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included the
commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.
Roland
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 15:35 Stop fiddling with my preferences Roland Lutz
@ 2014-11-23 16:27 ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-11-23 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-23 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-30 14:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eric S. Raymond @ 2014-11-23 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Roland Lutz; +Cc: emacs-devel
Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml@hedmen.org>:
> How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
>
> Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included
> the commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.
I second this. I'm a bit irritated by the new clipboard behavior myself.
We shouldn't ship changes like that without telling people how they
can keep the behavior theiy're used to.
--
<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 15:35 Stop fiddling with my preferences Roland Lutz
2014-11-23 16:27 ` Eric S. Raymond
@ 2014-11-23 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-23 17:25 ` Fabrice Popineau
2014-12-01 7:15 ` Bob Proulx
2014-11-30 14:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-11-23 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Roland Lutz; +Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:35:37 +0100 (CET)
> From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml@hedmen.org>
>
> For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of
> Emacs, something in the behavior changed.
The time between Emacs releases is not measured in months,
unfortunately, but in years.
> I had to figure out each time what it was that caused the change and
> how to compensate for it. This usually took me an hour or more
> since it isn't easily documented and most solutions suggested on the
> web have unwanted side-effects.
Changes in user-visible behavior are documented in etc/NEWS, together
with the description of how to get back old behavior. If you find
some change that isn't documented like that, please report that as a
bug.
> This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary
> operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs? One of
> the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be
> worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs
> any more, etc.
We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
because Emacs is immature. User demands and expectations change with
time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
> How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
since some Emacs version.
> Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included the
> commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.
We already do that, see above. It should be in NEWS; if not, please
report as a bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-11-23 17:25 ` Fabrice Popineau
2014-11-25 14:25 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2014-12-01 7:15 ` Bob Proulx
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Fabrice Popineau @ 2014-11-23 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:35:37 +0100 (CET)
> > From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml <at> hedmen.org>
> >
> > For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of
> > Emacs, something in the behavior changed.
>
> The time between Emacs releases is not measured in months,
> unfortunately, but in years.
>
> > I had to figure out each time what it was that caused the change and
> > how to compensate for it. This usually took me an hour or more
> > since it isn't easily documented and most solutions suggested on the
> > web have unwanted side-effects.
>
> Changes in user-visible behavior are documented in etc/NEWS, together
> with the description of how to get back old behavior. If you find
> some change that isn't documented like that, please report that as a
> bug.
>
> > This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary
> > operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs? One of
> > the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be
> > worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs
> > any more, etc.
>
> We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
> because Emacs is immature. User demands and expectations change with
> time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
>
> > How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
>
> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
> since some Emacs version.
Nice command, but fails for me right now with
Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")
(emacs-repository-get-version)
"f97a7d9a833044a828e0ce96ae3df600d613b359"
in lisp/cus-edit.el :
(let (found)
(mapatoms
(lambda (symbol)
(let* ((package-version (get symbol 'custom-package-version))
(version
(or (and package-version
(customize-package-emacs-version symbol
package-version))
(get symbol 'custom-version))))
(if version
(when (customize-version-lessp since-version version)
(if (or (get symbol 'custom-group)
(get symbol 'group-documentation))
(push (list symbol 'custom-group) found))
(if (custom-variable-p symbol)
(push (list symbol 'custom-variable) found))
(if (custom-facep symbol)
(push (list symbol 'custom-face) found)))))))
(get symbol 'custom-version) is not a fail safe value to pass to #'customize-
version-lessp since it returns a cons where you need a string.
The #'customize-version-lessp function tries to compare the former which is the
package version (say for me, it fails with '(flycheck . "0.16") ) whith the
latter which is "24.1" (the emacs since-version). This has to be fixed albeit I
have no idea about the best way to do it.
Fabrice
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 16:27 ` Eric S. Raymond
@ 2014-11-23 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-23 17:45 ` Roland Lutz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-11-23 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw
To: esr; +Cc: rlutz-ml, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:27:05 -0500
> From: "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> > Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included
> > the commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.
>
> I second this. I'm a bit irritated by the new clipboard behavior
> myself. We shouldn't ship changes like that without telling people
> how they can keep the behavior theiy're used to.
We didn't do anything like you imply. See the NEWS excerpt below
(although having such complaints from people who clearly don't read
NEWS is hardly an incentive to continue with these efforts).
** Selection changes.
The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
changed to conform with modern X applications. In short, most
commands for killing and yanking text now use the clipboard, while
mouse commands use the primary selection.
In the following, we provide a list of these changes, followed by a
list of steps to get the old behavior back if you prefer that.
*** `select-active-regions' now defaults to t.
Merely selecting text (e.g. with drag-mouse-1) no longer puts it in
the kill ring. The selected text is put in the primary selection, if
the system possesses a separate primary selection facility (e.g. X).
**** `select-active-regions' also accepts a new value, `only'.
This means to only set the primary selection for temporarily active
regions (usually made by mouse-dragging or shift-selection);
"ordinary" active regions, such as those made with C-SPC followed by
point motion, do not alter the primary selection.
**** `mouse-drag-copy-region' now defaults to nil.
*** mouse-2 is now bound to `mouse-yank-primary'.
This pastes from the primary selection, ignoring the kill-ring.
Previously, mouse-2 was bound to `mouse-yank-at-click'.
*** `x-select-enable-clipboard' now defaults to t on all platforms.
*** `x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil.
Thus, commands that kill text or copy it to the kill-ring (such as
M-w, C-w, and C-k) also use the clipboard---not the primary selection.
**** The "Copy", "Cut", and "Paste" items in the "Edit" menu are now
exactly equivalent to M-w, C-w, and C-y respectively.
**** Note that on MS-Windows, `x-select-enable-clipboard' was already
non-nil by default, as Windows does not support the primary selection
between applications.
*** To return to the previous behavior, do the following:
**** Change `select-active-regions' to nil.
**** Change `mouse-drag-copy-region' to t.
**** Change `x-select-enable-primary' to t (on X only).
**** Change `x-select-enable-clipboard' to nil.
**** Bind `mouse-yank-at-click' to mouse-2.
*** Support for X cut buffers has been removed.
*** X clipboard managers are now supported.
To inhibit this, change `x-select-enable-clipboard-manager' to nil.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-11-23 17:45 ` Roland Lutz
2014-11-23 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Roland Lutz @ 2014-11-23 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel
On Sun, 23 Nov 2014, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> See the NEWS excerpt below (although having such complaints from people
> who clearly don't read NEWS is hardly an incentive to continue with
> these efforts).
These instructions are helpful (I didn't know about the NEWS file at that
point) but they are missing `delete-active-region'. Sure, it's documented
a few paragraphs above, but it doesn't say that it's enabled by default.
For electric-indent-mode, it says:
> *** `electric-indent-mode' is now enabled by default.
> Typing RET reindents the current line and indents the new line.
> `C-j' inserts a newline but does not indent. In some programming modes,
> additional characters are electric (eg `{').
>
> *** New buffer-local `electric-indent-local-mode'.
After a bit of confusion with the argument of electric-indent-mode (nil
enabling the mode), I disabled it globally. However, this disabled all
other electric characters, too. I couldn't find documented how to revert
to the previous behavior where `{' is electric but RET isn't.
> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
> since some Emacs version.
This doesn't help me here.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 17:45 ` Roland Lutz
@ 2014-11-23 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-11-23 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Roland Lutz; +Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:45:24 +0100 (CET)
> From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml@hedmen.org>
> cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2014, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > See the NEWS excerpt below (although having such complaints from people
> > who clearly don't read NEWS is hardly an incentive to continue with
> > these efforts).
>
> These instructions are helpful (I didn't know about the NEWS file at that
> point) but they are missing `delete-active-region'. Sure, it's documented
> a few paragraphs above, but it doesn't say that it's enabled by default.
Like I said, please report this as a bug.
> For electric-indent-mode, it says:
>
> > *** `electric-indent-mode' is now enabled by default.
> > Typing RET reindents the current line and indents the new line.
> > `C-j' inserts a newline but does not indent. In some programming modes,
> > additional characters are electric (eg `{').
> >
> > *** New buffer-local `electric-indent-local-mode'.
>
> After a bit of confusion with the argument of electric-indent-mode (nil
> enabling the mode), I disabled it globally. However, this disabled all
> other electric characters, too. I couldn't find documented how to revert
> to the previous behavior where `{' is electric but RET isn't.
I think you want
M-x electric-indent-just-newline RET
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 17:25 ` Fabrice Popineau
@ 2014-11-25 14:25 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2014-11-25 16:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Wiesner @ 2014-11-25 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Fabrice Popineau; +Cc: emacs-devel
Am 23.11.2014 um 18:25 schrieb Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@gmail.com>:
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:35:37 +0100 (CET)
>>> From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml <at> hedmen.org>
>>>
>>> For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of
>>> Emacs, something in the behavior changed.
>>
>> The time between Emacs releases is not measured in months,
>> unfortunately, but in years.
>>
>>> I had to figure out each time what it was that caused the change and
>>> how to compensate for it. This usually took me an hour or more
>>> since it isn't easily documented and most solutions suggested on the
>>> web have unwanted side-effects.
>>
>> Changes in user-visible behavior are documented in etc/NEWS, together
>> with the description of how to get back old behavior. If you find
>> some change that isn't documented like that, please report that as a
>> bug.
>>
>>> This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary
>>> operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs? One of
>>> the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be
>>> worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs
>>> any more, etc.
>>
>> We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
>> because Emacs is immature. User demands and expectations change with
>> time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
>>
>>> How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
>>
>> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
>> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
>> since some Emacs version.
>
> Nice command, but fails for me right now with
>
> Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")
This was an issue in Flycheck, caused by faulty keyword arguments to some `defcustom' definitions. I've fixed it in the latest master. Please update Flycheck.
I am sorry for the inconvenience this issue caused.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-25 14:25 ` Sebastian Wiesner
@ 2014-11-25 16:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-25 17:12 ` Sebastian Wiesner
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-11-25 16:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Sebastian Wiesner; +Cc: fabrice.popineau, emacs-devel
> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:25:14 +0100
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> >> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
> >> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
> >> since some Emacs version.
> >
> > Nice command, but fails for me right now with
> >
> > Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")
>
> This was an issue in Flycheck, caused by faulty keyword arguments to some `defcustom' definitions. I've fixed it in the latest master. Please update Flycheck.
Thanks.
However, if the problem exists in the emacs-24 branch, please backport
the fix there. (And in general such bugs should be fixed only on
emacs-24; they will be later merged onto master.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-25 16:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-11-25 17:12 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2014-11-25 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Wiesner @ 2014-11-25 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: fabrice.popineau, emacs-devel
> Am 25.11.2014 um 17:47 schrieb Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
>
>> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
>> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:25:14 +0100
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>>>> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
>>>> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
>>>> since some Emacs version.
>>>
>>> Nice command, but fails for me right now with
>>>
>>> Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")
>>
>> This was an issue in Flycheck, caused by faulty keyword arguments to some `defcustom' definitions. I've fixed it in the latest master. Please update Flycheck.
>
> Thanks.
>
> However, if the problem exists in the emacs-24 branch, please backport
> the fix there. (And in general such bugs should be fixed only on
> emacs-24; they will be later merged onto master.)
Er, I'm not sure I can follow you. Did you confuse Flycheck with Flymake?
Flycheck is not part of GNU Emacs. It's an independent 3rd party package, and a flaw in this package was causing the issue.
I don't contribute to Emacs. I have no commit rights, and I didn't even sign the CA.
Sorry for the confusion
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-25 17:12 ` Sebastian Wiesner
@ 2014-11-25 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-25 17:30 ` Sebastian Wiesner
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-11-25 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Sebastian Wiesner; +Cc: fabrice.popineau, emacs-devel
> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:12:59 +0100
> Cc: fabrice.popineau@gmail.com,
> emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> Er, I'm not sure I can follow you. Did you confuse Flycheck with Flymake?
No, I just didn't know it's not part of Emacs. Sorry.
Thanks for fixing the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-25 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-11-25 17:30 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2014-11-25 19:18 ` Fabrice Popineau
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Wiesner @ 2014-11-25 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: fabrice.popineau, emacs-devel
> Am 25.11.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
>
>> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
>> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:12:59 +0100
>> Cc: fabrice.popineau@gmail.com,
>> emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> Er, I'm not sure I can follow you. Did you confuse Flycheck with Flymake?
>
> No, I just didn't know it's not part of Emacs. Sorry.
No problem. I'm sorry for the bug, and the confusion. I should have said right away that it's a third party package.
> Thanks for fixing the bug.
You are welcome.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-25 17:30 ` Sebastian Wiesner
@ 2014-11-25 19:18 ` Fabrice Popineau
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Fabrice Popineau @ 2014-11-25 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Sebastian Wiesner; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Emacs developers
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 742 bytes --]
Thanks also for fixing the bug and sorry for the noise with my
misunderstanding of the problem.
Fabrice
2014-11-25 18:30 GMT+01:00 Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>:
>
> > Am 25.11.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
> >
> >> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
> >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:12:59 +0100
> >> Cc: fabrice.popineau@gmail.com,
> >> emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >>
> >> Er, I'm not sure I can follow you. Did you confuse Flycheck with
> Flymake?
> >
> > No, I just didn't know it's not part of Emacs. Sorry.
>
> No problem. I'm sorry for the bug, and the confusion. I should have said
> right away that it's a third party package.
>
> > Thanks for fixing the bug.
>
> You are welcome.
>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1439 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 15:35 Stop fiddling with my preferences Roland Lutz
2014-11-23 16:27 ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-11-23 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-11-30 14:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-11-30 14:15 ` joakim
2014-11-30 14:31 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-11-30 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Roland Lutz; +Cc: emacs-devel
> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
(oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
back the default behavior of previous releases.
The main feature of this file (compared to NEWS which should already
contain this info) would be to be short.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-30 14:02 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2014-11-30 14:15 ` joakim
2014-11-30 15:00 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2014-11-30 14:31 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: joakim @ 2014-11-30 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Roland Lutz, emacs-devel
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
>> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
>> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
>> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
>> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
>> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
>
> Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
> (oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
> back the default behavior of previous releases.
antinews.el ?
>
> The main feature of this file (compared to NEWS which should already
> contain this info) would be to be short.
>
>
> Stefan
>
--
Joakim Verona
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-30 14:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-11-30 14:15 ` joakim
@ 2014-11-30 14:31 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2014-11-30 15:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: H. Dieter Wilhelm @ 2014-11-30 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
>> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
>> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
>> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
>> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
>> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
>
> Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
> (oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
> back the default behavior of previous releases.
>
> The main feature of this file (compared to NEWS which should already
> contain this info) would be to be short.
A Resurrection of ANTINEWS? Maybe a sort of, please!
“For those users who live backwards in time, here is information about
downgrading (to the behaviour) of Emacs version XX.X.”
Dieter
--
Best wishes
H. Dieter Wilhelm
Darmstadt, Germany
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-30 14:15 ` joakim
@ 2014-11-30 15:00 ` Eric Abrahamsen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eric Abrahamsen @ 2014-11-30 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
joakim@verona.se writes:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
>>> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
>>> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
>>> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
>>> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
>>> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
>>
>> Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
>> (oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
>> back the default behavior of previous releases.
>
> antinews.el ?
offmylawn.el?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-30 14:31 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
@ 2014-11-30 15:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-30 19:32 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-11-30 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: H. Dieter Wilhelm; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de (H. Dieter Wilhelm)
> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:31:43 +0100
>
> A Resurrection of ANTINEWS?
Antinews never died, we write a new chapter for each major release.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-30 15:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2014-11-30 19:32 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: H. Dieter Wilhelm @ 2014-11-30 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de (H. Dieter Wilhelm)
>> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:31:43 +0100
>>
>> A Resurrection of ANTINEWS?
>
> Antinews never died, we write a new chapter for each major release.
Good to know. :-)
Formerly I found it in /etc. And now it's even in the Emacs manual,
thanks!
Dieter
PS: And I should also update
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AntiNews
with a hint where the latest stuff is...
--
Best wishes
H. Dieter Wilhelm
Darmstadt, Germany
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-11-23 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-23 17:25 ` Fabrice Popineau
@ 2014-12-01 7:15 ` Bob Proulx
2014-12-01 13:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-12-01 15:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Bob Proulx @ 2014-12-01 7:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Roland Lutz wrote:
> > operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs? One of
> > the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be
> > worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs
> > any more, etc.
>
> We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
> because Emacs is immature. User demands and expectations change with
> time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
I often hear developers saying this. But I rarely hear users asking
for these (mis)features. Therefore what it feels like is actually
happening is that when developers want to do something they just do it
and claim that users want it. When they don't want to do it then they
claim they can't because of backward compatibility. It is very
frustrating.
I had to make almost exactly the same fixes as Roland too.
Bob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-12-01 7:15 ` Bob Proulx
@ 2014-12-01 13:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-12-01 15:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-12-01 13:42 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
> for these (mis)features. Therefore what it feels like is actually
> happening is that when developers want to do something they just do it
> and claim that users want it.
Every release comes with different kinds of new defaults:
- New features that are immediately enabled. These are typically
enabled specifically so that users get to use it without having to
hunt for it and discover that it's actually bundled with Emacs.
- Old features which have been repeatedly requested, and which we
finally polished/refined/cleaned up enough that enabling them by
default is deemed acceptable.
Typical example: shift-select-mode, font-lock-mode.
- Old features I like and can't imagine Bob would like to turn off.
- Random features that will irk old-timers.
This last kind is not useful in itself (other than for comic relief) by
is used afterwards as a witness in our statistical analysis of
bug-reports and complaints to measure more precisely the resistance to
change, and adjust our expectations for the next release.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences
2014-12-01 7:15 ` Bob Proulx
2014-12-01 13:42 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2014-12-01 15:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-12-01 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Bob Proulx; +Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 00:15:53 -0700
> From: Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com>
>
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Roland Lutz wrote:
> > > operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs? One of
> > > the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be
> > > worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs
> > > any more, etc.
> >
> > We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
> > because Emacs is immature. User demands and expectations change with
> > time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
>
> I often hear developers saying this. But I rarely hear users asking
> for these (mis)features.
You should read this list more frequently, then. Typically, each such
decision (or indecision) is accompanied by a very long discussion
here, with core developers usually _resisting_ radical changes that
break old habits. We, too, use Emacs, you know.
Here's a discussion related to that particular (mis)feature.
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html
> Therefore what it feels like is actually happening is that when
> developers want to do something they just do it and claim that users
> want it. When they don't want to do it then they claim they can't
> because of backward compatibility.
That's extremely unfair. The truth is almost the opposite. I invite
you to read the archives of this list and see for yourself. Perhaps
others could point to additional discussions regarding similar changes
(turning on font-lock globally comes to mind).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-12-01 15:54 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2014-11-23 15:35 Stop fiddling with my preferences Roland Lutz
2014-11-23 16:27 ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-11-23 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-23 17:45 ` Roland Lutz
2014-11-23 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-23 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-23 17:25 ` Fabrice Popineau
2014-11-25 14:25 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2014-11-25 16:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-25 17:12 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2014-11-25 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-25 17:30 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2014-11-25 19:18 ` Fabrice Popineau
2014-12-01 7:15 ` Bob Proulx
2014-12-01 13:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-12-01 15:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-30 14:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-11-30 14:15 ` joakim
2014-11-30 15:00 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2014-11-30 14:31 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2014-11-30 15:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-11-30 19:32 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
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