From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD= gives confusing results Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 21:40:16 +0300 Message-ID: <83d1mkc92n.fsf@gnu.org> References: <>> <83vb0fgu83.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default>> <8337nihpdw.fsf@gnu.org>>> < <83zipqg3e3.fsf@gnu.org>> <<871t32ilm0.fsf@users.sourceforge.net>> <<83k2gtfue4.fsf@gnu.org>> <39c015f2-3ebf-43e8-9a37-9b50382042a7@default> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1468262545 5396 80.91.229.3 (11 Jul 2016 18:42:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:42:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 23926@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 11 20:42:14 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg9k-0003vf-BP for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:42:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35532 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg9j-0006Db-Kv for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:42:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44047) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg9e-0006DV-6G for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:42:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg9a-0000Nf-4T for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:42:06 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:34866) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg9a-0000Na-0r for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:42:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg9Z-0001d0-S1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:42:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23926-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.14682624636179 (code B ref 23926); Mon, 11 Jul 2016 18:42:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jul 2016 18:41:03 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47203 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg8d-0001bb-9v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:41:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52781) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg8b-0001ax-By for 23926@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:41:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg8S-0000D0-7E for 23926@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:40:56 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51742) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg8S-0000CL-41; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:40:52 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4081 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bMg8O-00021l-90; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:40:50 -0400 In-reply-to: <39c015f2-3ebf-43e8-9a37-9b50382042a7@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:120867 Archived-At: > Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 23926@debbugs.gnu.org > > It can sometimes make a lot of sense for a defcustom to use a sexp > that might not return the same result when reevaluated. One way to do that while avoiding the issue at hand is to define a 'set' function to do the job, instead of doing it explicitly in the initialization value. > The original bug, from which this report is an offshoot, was #4755. > The example there used this defcustom sexp: `(copy-sequence foo)'. > > And in the context of the using code there is nothing wrong with > such a sexp: the intention is really to use, as default value, a > (new) list whose elements are the (exact same) elements as those > in the list `foo'. I guess it's crystal-clear now what's wrong with such a sexp. > The problem is not with being able to make use of such a sexp for > the default value. The problem is with how Emacs talks about the > state of the option value. It miscommunicates to users. That's > what this bug is about: how Emacs talks about what is going on. Emacs says the truth: the value of the defcustom was changed behind Customize's back. And since I've already said all that once before, let's stop going in circles. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.