From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:22:48 +0200 Message-ID: <83bo1bcysn.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5288A59E.7030109@dancol.org> <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87mwl04w3k.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <87iovo4caz.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <877gc14vzs.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <878uwhxnqe.fsf@informatimago.com> <83txf4cw9z.fsf@gnu.org> <416D7143-AE4A-45FF-A3A3-AA208D268D97@informatimago.com> <83hab4ce1o.fsf@gnu.org> <87vbzkvyiz.fsf@informatimago.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385194973 20554 80.91.229.3 (23 Nov 2013 08:22:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:22:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 23 09:22:58 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Vk8US-00048N-TI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 09:22:57 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42763 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vk8US-0007PC-F3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 03:22:56 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45993) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vk8UK-0007Og-V7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 03:22:54 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vk8UF-0000AZ-Q0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 03:22:48 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:39916) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vk8UF-0000AU-HH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 03:22:43 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MWP00800J3STO00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:22:42 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MWP00851J9SQU50@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:22:41 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <87vbzkvyiz.fsf@informatimago.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165606 Archived-At: > From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 23:53:40 +0100 >=20 > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > >> From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" > >> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 22:06:23 +0100 > >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > >>=20 > >> My point is that WYSIWIG doesn't mean anything when you don't co= nsider an "external" medium. > > > > I cannot disagree more. The main features of a document change v= ery > > little with paper size changes. >=20 > The structure of the document doesn't change (it's mostly unrelated= to > the presentation or layout). But the layout of the document depend= s > obviously on the target medium. The layout depends on the medium in very minor ways, as long as we ar= e talking about the "usual" page sizes. If what you have in mind is A3 paper or greeting cards, then the layout is indeed greatly affected, but that's taking the issue to its extreme. IOW, WYSIWYG is much more than just layout. > So I persist, WYSIWIG =3D target medium representation. And I insist that this is a myopic view of WYSIWYG. > If you don't specify target medium representation, then you don't n= eed > WYSIWIG. Entirely wrong. You seem to think that visual appearance of the text itself is not an important part of WYSIWYG. Nothing can be farther from truth. > What I'm asking, is what you do once the user specified a DTD conta= ining > elements such as: , and ? How do you edit th= em? I have no idea what these are or why would the user need to edit them= . > >> We'd have to disable removing truncate-lines mode > > > > What? why?? >=20 > Because otherwise it's not WYSIWIG anymore: without truncate-lines,= the > lines are flowed and are not displayed anymore like they appear on = the > printed page. >=20 >=20 > > And why are you talking about truncate-lines, when Emacs has word= -wrap > > for quite some time now? >=20 > I'm not sure what you mean by word-wrap exactly? "C-h v word-wrap RET" will tell you. > - open some text file. > - M-x set-fill-column RET 40 RET -- characters not 12.5 cm! > - C-x h M-x set-justification-left RET > - reduce the width of the frame or window to 30 characters wide. >=20 > Without truncate-line mode, each line is wrapped over, which is not > WYSIWIG. >=20 > With M-x visual-line-mode RET it's the same thing. So we need to add a feature whereby word-wrap happens at a fixed column. That should be easy. > Type: M-x shell RET libreoffice RET=20 > Click on: Text document > Type: Hello world! > Select the paragraph,=20 > Click on the left margin knob above and move it 0.5 inch to the rig= ht. >=20 > Notice how the page is represented, as a white rectangle, how the > margins are represented as L shapes offset from the four corners, h= ow > rules are graphical representations with graphical graduations, > unrelated to the font sizes, notice how scrolling occurs pixel by p= ixel, graphically. >=20 > Select the word Hello, click on the style popup menu, select More= =E2=80=A6, > scroll down and click on Vertical Numbering Symbols. >=20 > Notice how the word Hello is rotated 90 degree counter clock wise. >=20 > All those representations could not occur no a normal textual termi= nal: > they are in essence graphical. Wrong. Text can be laid out vertically as well (if we decide that's an important feature to have in Emacs) without treating it as a picture.