From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 18:42:13 +0300 Message-ID: <83bn2an57u.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <5775A512.4020803@gmail.com> <8337ntvm2d.fsf@gnu.org> <5776B89F.60704@gmail.com> <83k2h5tbtv.fsf@gnu.org> <5776E1F4.3020709@gmail.com> <83eg7ctt90.fsf@gnu.org> <87poqwpfld.fsf@Rainer.invalid> <83y45ks69l.fsf@gnu.org> <87inwkari1.fsf@mbork.pl> <83eg77oott.fsf@gnu.org> <87a8hvc0yr.fsf@mbork.pl> <8360sion9i.fsf@gnu.org> <8737nmbx4m.fsf@mbork.pl> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1467820102 23600 80.91.229.3 (6 Jul 2016 15:48:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 15:48:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Marcin Borkowski Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 06 17:48:22 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bKp3k-0006fZ-84 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:48:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34370 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKp3j-0001EA-EZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 11:48:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37918) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKoy9-0003Ad-Qh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 11:42:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKoy5-00067L-MJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 11:42:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36035) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKoy5-00066W-J0; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 11:42:29 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4467 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bKoy3-0003dd-KT; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 11:42:28 -0400 In-reply-to: <8737nmbx4m.fsf@mbork.pl> (message from Marcin Borkowski on Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:32:25 +0200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205267 Archived-At: > From: Marcin Borkowski > Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:32:25 +0200 > > > On 2016-07-06, at 16:27, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >> From: Marcin Borkowski > >> Cc: Stromeko@nexgo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > >> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:57:16 +0200 > >> > >> >> On 2016-07-02, at 12:07, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > You are missing the point. The point is how much of the basic > >> >> > functionality one needs to master before they can use a single feature > >> >> > >> >> As I said, in case of Org, next to none. > >> > > >> > That is false (I do use Org seriously). > >> > >> No, it isn't. > >> > >> In order to start to use outlining (one feature) you only need to know > >> how to mark up headlines (bol + stars + space + title) and how to use > >> TAB to cycle visibility. > > > > If I need only outlining, I don't need Org, I can use the Outline > > mode. We are talking about features that are in Org and only in Org. > > > > Come on, let's be serious in this discussion! > > Sorry, Eli, but I can say the same. Be serious. As I wrote: > > > I covered more than half a dozen extremely useful features > > and you commented on _one_ of them. And mentioning Outline mode in > a discussion on _ease of use_ as an alternative of Org is kind of > strange. It wasn't a discussion on ease of use. Look back. It was a discussion of how much of the mode one needs to learn before one becomes productive with one feature the mode provides. You said: next to none, and gave outlining as the example. To which I responded that outlining alone doesn't justify using Org at all, as there are simpler alternatives. > Compared to Org, Outline mode is almost unusable wrt visibility > cycling. Yes, it has more capabilities, but it also has an order of > magnitude more commands to remember! Remembering commands is not an issue when you use a mode frequently enough, or infrequently enough.