Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

Have been doing

C-h i 

to get to the Info Directory

But when I press "?" for the list of Info commands, as soon as I try to move down
the window either with the mouse scroll an with the arrow keys, I am directed
immediately to The Info Directory as though I pressed "d".

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 00:37:33 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> 
> Have been doing
> 
> C-h i 
> 
> to get to the Info Directory
> 
> But when I press "?" for the list of Info commands, as soon as I try to move down
> the window either with the mouse scroll an with the arrow keys, I am directed
> immediately to The Info Directory as though I pressed "d".

When you press "?", what does Emacs say in the echo-area?

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 12:31, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > Have been doing
> >
> > C-h i
> >
> > to get to the Info Directory
> >
> > But when I press "?" for the list of Info commands, as soon as I try to move down
> > the window either with the mouse scroll an with the arrow keys, I am directed
> > immediately to The Info Directory as though I pressed "d".
>
> When you press "?", what does Emacs say in the echo-area?

It says “Type Space to see more” or “Type Space to return to Info” if
on the last page. This message comes from ‘Info-summary’ which
contains a rudimentary modal scrolling event loop; pressing any key
other than space un-reads that key and hides the help buffer.

However, what is the reason for that event loop? Wouldn’t it be better
to just display and activate the help buffer, and arrange for <SPC> to
scroll it (which ‘help-mode-map’ already does) and additionally allow
scrolling in more familiar ways, such as by arrow keys (which also
automatically work in a non-modal ‘help-mode’ buffer)?

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 13:00:30 +0700
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> However, what is the reason for that event loop?

The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss.  As the
user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
the least.

For the same reason, the first screenful displayed by "?" should show
all of the essential commands, leaving the next screenful to show the
advanced and more rarely-used ones.

I'm not saying I object to adding more keys to scroll the display
there, but the simplicity of going back to the manual should be
preserved.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, July 7th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 00:37:33 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > 
> > Have been doing
> > 
> > C-h i
> > 
> > to get to the Info Directory
> > 
> > But when I press "?" for the list of Info commands, as soon as I try to move down
> > the window either with the mouse scroll an with the arrow keys, I am directed
> > immediately to The Info Directory as though I pressed "d".
> 
> 
> When you press "?", what does Emacs say in the echo-area?

Having a number of windows with the top one being The Info Directory, it is 
not straightforward to recognise that the echo area is supplying instructions
about how to traverse the buffer.  

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, July 7th, 2023 at 6:38 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > From: Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com
> > Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 13:00:30 +0700
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > However, what is the reason for that event loop?
> 
> 
> The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss. As the
> user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
> them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
> the least.

For newbies it is even more strange to see oneself getting diverted back
to the manual, considering that many are used to traverse a buffer with
the arrow keys or mouse scroll.  Particularly when such buffer scrolling
operations work as expected within the manual.  
 
> For the same reason, the first screenful displayed by "?" should show
> all of the essential commands, leaving the next screenful to show the
> advanced and more rarely-used ones.
> 
> I'm not saying I object to adding more keys to scroll the display
> there, but the simplicity of going back to the manual should be
> preserved.

The informational note about how to traverse the buffer shewn in the 
Echo Area should be written at the beginning, as soon as the newbie
(or not) gets to the '?' page.
 

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, July 7th, 2023 at 6:38 PM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > From: Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com
> > > Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 13:00:30 +0700
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > 
> > > However, what is the reason for that event loop?
> > 
> > The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss. As the
> > user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
> > them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
> > the least.
> 
> 
> For newbies it is even more strange to see oneself getting diverted back
> to the manual, considering that many are used to traverse a buffer with
> the arrow keys or mouse scroll. Particularly when such buffer scrolling
> operations work as expected within the manual.
> 
> > For the same reason, the first screenful displayed by "?" should show
> > all of the essential commands, leaving the next screenful to show the
> > advanced and more rarely-used ones.
> > 
> > I'm not saying I object to adding more keys to scroll the display
> > there, but the simplicity of going back to the manual should be
> > preserved.
> 
> 
> The informational note about how to traverse the buffer shewn in the
> Echo Area should be written at the beginning, as soon as the newbie
> (or not) gets to the '?' page.

Then there is the problem of how to move up again after using space to see more.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 11:30:59 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > When you press "?", what does Emacs say in the echo-area?
> 
> Having a number of windows with the top one being The Info Directory, it is 
> not straightforward to recognise that the echo area is supplying instructions
> about how to traverse the buffer.  

You should always watch the echo-area in Emacs.  The stuff it shows
there is in many cases important.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 11:40:38 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Then there is the problem of how to move up again after using space to see more.

It nothing comes to mind, press "?" again.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 12:54 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 11:40:38 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > Then there is the problem of how to move up again after using space to see more.
> 
> 
> It nothing comes to mind, press "?" again.

Not being able to operate upon the '?' buffer is very problematic.  For instance,
if one wishes to increase or decrease the font size, one cannot do so because they
get redirected to the manual.

The buffer should be made to behave as a normal buffer, using some key to get out of it. 

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 13:03:46 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Not being able to operate upon the '?' buffer is very problematic.  For instance,
> if one wishes to increase or decrease the font size, one cannot do so because they
> get redirected to the manual.

Users who want to change their font should be already very familiar
with how Info mode works.

> The buffer should be made to behave as a normal buffer, using some key to get out of it. 

I disagree, and I already explained why.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 1:12 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 13:03:46 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > Not being able to operate upon the '?' buffer is very problematic. For instance,
> > if one wishes to increase or decrease the font size, one cannot do so because they
> > get redirected to the manual.
> 
> 
> Users who want to change their font should be already very familiar
> with how Info mode works.

Certainly not, because they could be using some premade tool.  Not being 
able to change the font with keys is unworkable for accessibility purposes.
 
> > The buffer should be made to behave as a normal buffer, using some key to get out of it.
> 
> 
> I disagree, and I already explained why.

Come up with some other method of going back to the manual.  You have a '?' tool that
nobody uses because the way to view it is worthless.  You know as I do that the workings
of the '?' tool is like nothing else, extremely weird as it always tried to get you back
to the manual rather than read the information.  Changing the font size (with key sequence)
works well for the manual.  Same ability should be extended to the '?' tool as well.

RE: [External] : Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Drew Adams]

> The informational note about how to traverse the buffer shewn in the
> Echo Area should be written at the beginning, as soon as the newbie
> (or not) gets to the '?' page.

You make enhancement requests and other suggestions
the same way you report a bug: `M-x report-emacs-bug`.

That way your suggestion is brought to the attention
of the people most likely to decide to take it into
account and perhaps implement it (or similar).  And
everyone gets a "bug" thread that's managed in the
bug tracker.

This help-gnu-emacs mailing list is mainly for Q&A
about using Emacs.  Related things such as your
suggestions for improving Emacs are fine too,
tangentially.  But for more/better effect, use
`M-x report-emacs-bug' to suggest enhancements.

RE: [External] : Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Drew Adams]

> > It nothing comes to mind, press "?" again.
> 
> Not being able to operate upon the '?' buffer is very problematic.

If it were "very problematic" for users in
general then it's very likely that would have
become apparent to others sometime in the 40
years that this UI has existed, and it would
have been discussed and addressed somehow.

Maybe you meant to say that you found it very
problematic for you.  Fair enough; noted here.

But again, please suggest specific improvements
using `M-x report-emacs-bug'.  That's more
likely to get you satisfaction or a better
understanding.

RE: [External] : Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Drew Adams]

> You have a '?' tool that nobody uses

Why do you think so?  Why the generalizations,
speaking for everyone?  Your view as one novice
is perhaps worthwhile, but is your view as an
expert about all Emacs users worthwhile?

> because the way to view it is worthless.
> You know as I do that the workings of the '?'
> tool is like nothing else, extremely weird

Lots of things that are new to someone can be
thought initially to be "worthless", "like
nothing else", or "extremely weird".

Fortunately, we can _learn_, as nearly every
2-year old has learned.  You can too, I'm sure
of it.

RE: [External] : Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 2:58 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:


> > > It nothing comes to mind, press "?" again.
> > 
> > Not being able to operate upon the '?' buffer is very problematic.
> 
> 
> If it were "very problematic" for users in
> general then it's very likely that would have
> become apparent to others sometime in the 40
> years that this UI has existed, and it would
> have been discussed and addressed somehow.
> 
> Maybe you meant to say that you found it very
> problematic for you. Fair enough; noted here.

Yes, it is from my experience playing with it like a newbie.
I do not see that people use it much and newbies are unlikely
to send bug reports to improve it.
 
> But again, please suggest specific improvements
> using `M-x report-emacs-bug'. That's more
> likely to get you satisfaction or a better
> understanding.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 13:39, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > However, what is the reason for that event loop?
>
> The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss.  As the
> user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
> them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
> the least.

‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.

As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits: (1) for the
rudimentary Info-summary modal event loop where SPC scrolls up and
anything else quits; (2) for modes that inherit from special-mode
where SPC scrolls up, DEL and S-SPC scroll down, ‘q’ quits, and all
familiar keys work; and (3) for the full experience editable buffers
where you have to scroll with Page Up/Down and have no notion of
quitting.

> For the same reason, the first screenful displayed by "?" should show
> all of the essential commands, leaving the next screenful to show the
> advanced and more rarely-used ones.
>
> I'm not saying I object to adding more keys to scroll the display
> there, but the simplicity of going back to the manual should be
> preserved.

(Hand-written whitespace-ignoring minimal diff follows. I signed the
paperwork some time ago and it should be valid for now.)

     (defun Info-summary ()
       "Display a brief summary of all Info commands."
       (interactive)
-      (save-window-excursion
         (switch-to-buffer "*Help*")
         (setq buffer-read-only nil)
         (erase-buffer)
         (insert (documentation 'Info-mode))
         (help-mode)
+        (setq-local header-line-format '("Press "
+                                         (:propertize "q" face
help-key-binding)
+                                         " to return to Info"))
         (goto-char (point-min))
-        (let (ch flag)
-          (while (progn (setq flag (not (pos-visible-in-window-p (point-max))))
-                        (message (if flag "Type Space to see more"
-                                   "Type Space to return to Info"))
-                        (if (not (eq ?\s (setq ch (read-event))))
-                            (progn (push ch unread-command-events) nil)
-                          flag))
-            (scroll-up)))
-        (bury-buffer "*Help*"))
+      (message "Press %s to return to Info" (propertize "q" 'face
'help-key-binding))
     )

(That said, for personal use, I bind ‘describe-mode’ to ‘?’ in
‘Info-mode-map’. It displays much the same text, albeit with a long
list of minor modes at the top and their details on the bottom.)

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 01:28:29 +0700
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 13:39, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> > > However, what is the reason for that event loop?
> >
> > The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss.  As the
> > user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
> > them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
> > the least.
> 
> ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
> fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
> habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.

And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits?  In the echo-area,
perhaps?

> As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits: (1) for the
> rudimentary Info-summary modal event loop where SPC scrolls up and
> anything else quits; (2) for modes that inherit from special-mode
> where SPC scrolls up, DEL and S-SPC scroll down, ‘q’ quits, and all
> familiar keys work; and (3) for the full experience editable buffers
> where you have to scroll with Page Up/Down and have no notion of
> quitting.

You exaggerate the problem.  A typical user of computers these days
needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions.  And
scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.

> > I'm not saying I object to adding more keys to scroll the display
> > there, but the simplicity of going back to the manual should be
> > preserved.
> 
> (Hand-written whitespace-ignoring minimal diff follows. I signed the
> paperwork some time ago and it should be valid for now.)

Thanks, but this is not the right place for posting patches.

RE: [External] : Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Drew Adams]

> (That said, for personal use, I bind ‘describe-mode’ to ‘?’ in
> ‘Info-mode-map’. It displays much the same text, albeit with a long
> list of minor modes at the top and their details on the bottom.)

I do that also, in Info+.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/InfoPlus

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 7:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > From: Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com
> > Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 01:28:29 +0700
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 13:39, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
> > 
> > > > However, what is the reason for that event loop?
> > > 
> > > The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss. As the
> > > user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
> > > them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
> > > the least.
> > 
> > ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
> > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
> > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.
> 
> 
> And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits? In the echo-area,
> perhaps?
> 
> > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits: (1) for the
> > rudimentary Info-summary modal event loop where SPC scrolls up and
> > anything else quits; (2) for modes that inherit from special-mode
> > where SPC scrolls up, DEL and S-SPC scroll down, ‘q’ quits, and all
> > familiar keys work; and (3) for the full experience editable buffers
> > where you have to scroll with Page Up/Down and have no notion of
> > quitting.
> 
> 
> You exaggerate the problem. A typical user of computers these days
> needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions. And
> scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.

How does one scroll up again, it is not evident how.
 
> > > I'm not saying I object to adding more keys to scroll the display
> > > there, but the simplicity of going back to the manual should be
> > > preserved.
> > 
> > (Hand-written whitespace-ignoring minimal diff follows. I signed the
> > paperwork some time ago and it should be valid for now.)
> 
> 
> Thanks, but this is not the right place for posting patches.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2023-07-07 09:40]:
> > From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 13:00:30 +0700
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > However, what is the reason for that event loop?
> 
> The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss.  As the
> user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
> them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
> the least.

It is possible to open new buffer and have SPC do the same scrolling
and RET or other keys to return to previous buffer. It is more user
friendly.

I have made package to build such buffers:

GNU Emacs package: rcd-dashboard.el -- Tool to build Emacs dashboards:
https://gnu.support/gnu-emacs/packages/GNU-Emacs-package-rcd-dashboard-el-Tool-to-build-Emacs-dashboards-76668.html

and similar applicatio for Org Export is free of blocking screen:

GNU Emacs package: rcd-org-export.el -- use Org to export Org:
https://gnu.support/gnu-emacs/packages/GNU-Emacs-package-rcd-org-export-el-use-Org-to-export-Org-76272.html

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Yuri Khan]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:06, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
> > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
> > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.
>
> And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits?  In the echo-area,
> perhaps?

Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever.

> > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits […]
>
> You exaggerate the problem.  A typical user of computers these days
> needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions.  And
> scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.

Users who know about scrolling with Space also expect Shift+Space to
scroll in reverse. Users also *really* expect to be able to scroll by
single lines. Help that hides as soon as you try to scroll it is not
very helpful.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 02:34:56 +0700
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:06, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> > > ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
> > > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
> > > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.
> >
> > And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits?  In the echo-area,
> > perhaps?
> 
> Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever.

Which is what we do now about SPC, and that is deemed not good enough.
How is showing 'q' there suddenly better?

> > > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits […]
> >
> > You exaggerate the problem.  A typical user of computers these days
> > needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions.  And
> > scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.
> 
> Users who know about scrolling with Space also expect Shift+Space to
> scroll in reverse. Users also *really* expect to be able to scroll by
> single lines. Help that hides as soon as you try to scroll it is not
> very helpful.

I disagree.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 7:34 AM, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:06, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
> 
> > > ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
> > > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
> > > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.
> > 
> > And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits? In the echo-area,
> > perhaps?
> 
> 
> Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever.
> 
> > > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits […]
> > 
> > You exaggerate the problem. A typical user of computers these days
> > needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions. And
> > scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.
> 
> 
> Users who know about scrolling with Space also expect Shift+Space to
> scroll in reverse. 

I find it strange that although we are talking about newbies using '?',
we now start talking about users knowing about scrolling with Space and
also expect Shift+Space for the reverse.  In this day and age, users
knowing such things are not newbies, but passed over programmers working
post retirement.

> Users also really expect to be able to scroll by single lines. Help 
> that hides as soon as you try to scroll it is not very helpful.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 22:40:06 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> > From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 02:34:56 +0700
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:06, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > > ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
> > > > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
> > > > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.
> > >
> > > And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits?  In the echo-area,
> > > perhaps?
> > 
> > Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever.
> 
> Which is what we do now about SPC, and that is deemed not good enough.
> How is showing 'q' there suddenly better?
> 
> > > > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits […]
> > >
> > > You exaggerate the problem.  A typical user of computers these days
> > > needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions.  And
> > > scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.
> > 
> > Users who know about scrolling with Space also expect Shift+Space to
> > scroll in reverse. Users also *really* expect to be able to scroll by
> > single lines. Help that hides as soon as you try to scroll it is not
> > very helpful.
> 
> I disagree.

As an aside, this is a typical Emacs incarnation of "the road to hell
is paved with good intentions": we take an obscure minor feature that
5 min ago no one even knew it existed and which bothered no one, and
suddenly it is a huge usability issue, worthy of inventing novel ways
of user interactions, new faces, new header-line displays (which, btw,
steal one screen line used for precious Help display), and whatnot.
And then we are surprised that Emacs doesn't become more stable as the
years go by.

Will we ever learn?

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2023-07-07 22:54]:
> As an aside, this is a typical Emacs incarnation of "the road to hell
> is paved with good intentions": we take an obscure minor feature that
> 5 min ago no one even knew it existed and which bothered no one, and
> suddenly it is a huge usability issue, worthy of inventing novel ways
> of user interactions, new faces, new header-line displays (which, btw,
> steal one screen line used for precious Help display), and whatnot.
> And then we are surprised that Emacs doesn't become more stable as the
> years go by.
> 
> Will we ever learn?

I do not share that viewpoint.

It can be assumed that if one person takes the time to write and send
a letter to editor of a newspaper, there may be thousands of others
who share similar concerns or opinions. The letter may serve as an
opportunity for the newspaper editor to reflect on the issue and
potentially address it in a way that resonates with a broader
audience. That is what many media companies do, they assume that if
there is one complaint, there must be thousand of other people who are
silent about it.

And I would like also to say "Will we ever learn?"

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 7:52 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 22:40:06 +0300
> > From: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org
> > 
> > > From: Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com
> > > Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 02:34:56 +0700
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > 
> > > On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:06, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
> > > > > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
> > > > > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.
> > > > 
> > > > And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits? In the echo-area,
> > > > perhaps?
> > > 
> > > Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever.
> > 
> > Which is what we do now about SPC, and that is deemed not good enough.
> > How is showing 'q' there suddenly better?
> > 
> > > > > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits […]
> > > > 
> > > > You exaggerate the problem. A typical user of computers these days
> > > > needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions. And
> > > > scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.
> > > 
> > > Users who know about scrolling with Space also expect Shift+Space to
> > > scroll in reverse. Users also really expect to be able to scroll by
> > > single lines. Help that hides as soon as you try to scroll it is not
> > > very helpful.
> > 
> > I disagree.
> 
> 
> As an aside, this is a typical Emacs incarnation of "the road to hell
> is paved with good intentions": we take an obscure minor feature that
> 5 min ago no one even knew it existed and which bothered no one, 

It bothered me but somehow that became irrelevant.  He has been making
good points which I agree with.

> and suddenly it is a huge usability issue, worthy of inventing novel ways
> of user interactions, new faces, new header-line displays (which, btw,
> steal one screen line used for precious Help display), and whatnot.
> And then we are surprised that Emacs doesn't become more stable as the
> years go by.
> 
> Will we ever learn?

It is not huge (although can be huge for a newbie), but these small things (mainly frozen 
by what old timers are used to) seem to get much opposition from approval and completion.
We never learn because we get stuck with the old ways.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Yuri Khan]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:40, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > > And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits?  In the echo-area,
> > > perhaps?
> >
> > Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever.
>
> Which is what we do now about SPC, and that is deemed not good enough.
> How is showing 'q' there suddenly better?

I cannot answer this because you’ve disagreed with the point that
explains it. (Namely, that users expect to be able to read without
having to be told about how to read, and do not expect the help
disappearing when they try to read it.)

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 8:11 AM, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:40, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
> 
> > > > And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits? In the echo-area,
> > > > perhaps?
> > > 
> > > Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever.
> > 
> > Which is what we do now about SPC, and that is deemed not good enough.
> > How is showing 'q' there suddenly better?
> 
> 
> I cannot answer this because you’ve disagreed with the point that
> explains it. (Namely, that users expect to be able to read without
> having to be told about how to read, and do not expect the help
> disappearing when they try to read it.)

That had been my experience and I hated it.  I never wanted the help
to disappear as soon as I try to display it and read it.

Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands

[Stephen Berman]

On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 19:11:01 +0000 uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote:

> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 7:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>
>> > From: Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com
>> > Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 01:28:29 +0700
>> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> > 
>> > On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 13:39, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
>> > 
>> > > > However, what is the reason for that event loop?
>> > > 
>> > > The reason is to allow return to the manual with minimal fuss. As the
>> > > user who invokes "?" is very likely to be a newbie to Emacs, having
>> > > them to deal with buffers and windows at this point is unwise, to say
>> > > the least.
>> > 
>> > ‘help-mode-map’ has ‘q’ bound to ‘quit-window’ and that’s the minimal
>> > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build
>> > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs.
>> 
>> 
>> And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits? In the echo-area,
>> perhaps?
>> 
>> > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits: (1) for the
>> > rudimentary Info-summary modal event loop where SPC scrolls up and
>> > anything else quits; (2) for modes that inherit from special-mode
>> > where SPC scrolls up, DEL and S-SPC scroll down, ‘q’ quits, and all
>> > familiar keys work; and (3) for the full experience editable buffers
>> > where you have to scroll with Page Up/Down and have no notion of
>> > quitting.
>> 
>> 
>> You exaggerate the problem. A typical user of computers these days
>> needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions. And
>> scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm.
>
> How does one scroll up again, it is not evident how.

At the risk of making another least useful response, note that typing
`C-h m' in info-mode displays the normal *Help* buffer (buried by `q'
and scrollable with keyboard and mouse) containing the exact content of
the special modal *Help* buffer displayed by typing `?' in info-mode.
Of course, the *Help* buffer displayed by `C-h m' (describe-mode) also
contains information about the minor modes active in the info-mode
buffer, so it's not as streamlined as the buffer displayed by `?', but
it is navigable in the usual ways.

Steve Berman