From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:08:39 +0300 Message-ID: <83aar0j6w8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87d3w2ncqs.fsf_-_@lola.goethe.zz> <87iq5py7xk.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83fx0slhxn.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqzwjkn9.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxv0je2b.fsf@gnu.org> <83eigcja4r.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1276376929 12767 80.91.229.12 (12 Jun 2010 21:08:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 12 23:08:47 2010 connect(): No such file or directory Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ONXwd-0004kP-Ay for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2010 23:08:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46783 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ONXwc-0008KZ-O4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2010 17:08:46 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=48534 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ONXwX-0008KU-FK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2010 17:08:42 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ONXwW-0007tF-KK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2010 17:08:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:58850) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ONXwW-0007t8-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2010 17:08:40 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L3X000006MQO900@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:08:38 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.88.125]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L3X00KOW6QD4990@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:08:38 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:125861 Archived-At: > From: Lennart Borgman > Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 22:26:29 +0200 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > I can now see the argument better for not letting the arrow keys move > visually, but I think I still disagree on that part. The reason I > disagree is the same as I stated from the beginning and that was > explained on the web page that said READING IS NOT CURSORING. Moving > the cursor depends on lower level memory in our brains. Yes, but us users of R2L scripts have that memory augmented, so we don't have problem with the current behavior. > And of course: without letting the arrow keys move visually on the > screen there is no easy way at all to move visually on the screen. I see nothing non-easy with logical-order motion. > This is actually a bit fun. Try creating with only blanks, just > spaces, tabs and newlines. Set some of the those chars to arabic and > let some be latin. Now try moving around the page using only the > visual keys. Try to go to the end of the page. (I suggest this as an > alternative to sudoku...) You can mock it as much as you want, but users of R2L scripts do this every day, and have no problem at all. Anyway, we are beginning to repeat ourselves. It's clear we disagree, so let's leave it at that.