From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#17511: 24.4.50; `line-move-ignore-invisible': doc and purpose not clear Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 18:02:30 +0300 Message-ID: <83a9age9dl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8c772b14-20d1-4e3a-9936-f81936c3d31b@default> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1400339006 2915 80.91.229.3 (17 May 2014 15:03:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 15:03:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 17511@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat May 17 17:03:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8s-0003zH-1t for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:03:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40425 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8r-00058f-LX for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:03:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54698) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8j-00057e-8w for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:03:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8d-0001ZH-BK for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:03:09 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:52678) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8d-0001Z8-8E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:03:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8c-0002VH-3o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:03:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 15:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 17511 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 17511-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B17511.14003389699591 (code B ref 17511); Sat, 17 May 2014 15:03:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 17511) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 May 2014 15:02:49 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51555 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8L-0002US-ER for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:02:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:49249) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wlg8E-0002U3-Ly for 17511@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:02:43 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N5Q001003WDAK00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 17511@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 18:02:31 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N5Q000EO4G6PP90@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 17 May 2014 18:02:31 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <8c772b14-20d1-4e3a-9936-f81936c3d31b@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:89192 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 07:45:44 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 17511@debbugs.gnu.org > > Thanks for improving this. Can this bug be closed, then? > > > 1. The doc string says only that `next-line' and `previous-line' ignore > > > invisible lines. What does it mean for these commands to "ignore > > > invisible lines" - what does "ignore" mean here? What's the > > > user-visible BEHAVIOR difference between a nil and a non-nil value? > > > Why/when might a user change the value to nil? > > > > I changed the doc string to this: > > > > "Non-nil means commands that move by lines ignore invisible newlines. > > > > When this option is non-nil, \\[next-line], \\[previous-line], \\[move-end- > > of-line], and \\[move-beginning-of-line] behave > > as if newlines that are invisible didn't exist, and count > > only visible newlines. Thus, moving across across 2 newlines > > one of which is invisible will be counted as a one-line move. > > Also, a non-nil value causes invisible text to be ignored when > > counting columns for the purposes of keeping point in the same > > column by \\[next-line] and \\[previous-line]. > > > > Outline mode sets this." > > > > I hope this answers all of your questions in #1. > > Very good; thanks. > (I don't think there should be a blank line after the first line, > but maybe that is just a mail artifact.) It's not; it's a standard formatting of a doc string, AFAIK. > > > 2. The doc string speaks of invisible lines. But (elisp) `Invisible > > > Text' speaks of "invisible newlines" (not lines), which is presumably > > > something different (newline chars vs lines of any chars except newline, > > > possibly including the separating newlines). Are both true? Which? > > > > I think the doc string now clarifies this as well. > > Yes, thanks. But the manual speaks only of invisible newlines, and to > me this part is not clear. The doc string now speaks about that as well. What's not clear about that? A newline is just a character, and as such can be invisible. > And whenever we speak of newlines (especially > where we are also talking about doing something wrt lines in general), > we should say "newline characters" or "newline chars". A "newline" as > such doesn't really exist in our vocabulary (or at least it shouldn't), > and some people might read it as meaning a "new line". I'd never suspect this could be a source of confusion in Emacs. The Glossary says: Newline Control-J characters in the buffer terminate lines of text and are therefore also called newlines. > > > 5. After saying that we provide option `line-move-ignore-invisible' > > > specifically to let you prevent line motion commands from ignoring > > > invisible newlines (whatever that might mean!), this node says that if > > > ANY command ends with point in a certain position relative to invisible > > > text, then the cursor is automatically moved past that stretch of > > > invisible text (one direction or the other). How is this related to the > > > previous text about line motion commands and > > > `line-move-ignore-invisible'? > > > > It isn't related to line-move-ignore-invisible. It is related to the > > broader issue described by that node, which is invisible text in > > general. > > Yes, I sensed that. I found (find) the juxtaposition confusing. > Maybe separate the two discussions better, and perhaps give an example > of interaction (or lack thereof) between the two. It's a separate paragraph already, and I removed the leading "However", which might hint on some too tight relation.