From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:44:05 +0200 Message-ID: <83a93112iy.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <2815659.zRQ0WWWeRr@descartes> <20141205175810.GD3120@thyrsus.com> <87lhmlncb1.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <20141205193643.GB5067@thyrsus.com> <87tx19rd1b.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <20141205215138.GF7784@thyrsus.com> <54823617.4000406@cs.ucla.edu> <83k325195l.fsf@gnu.org> <5482D94B.2070102@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417862658 3202 80.91.229.3 (6 Dec 2014 10:44:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 10:44:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 06 11:44:11 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XxCqQ-0001hR-VB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 11:44:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54007 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxCqQ-0002bP-Jp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 05:44:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42678) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxCqB-0002ap-3H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 05:44:00 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxCq6-0008Q1-5z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 05:43:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:39953) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxCq5-0008Ok-Tb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 05:43:50 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NG500500PAEWY00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:43:48 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NG5005R6PSXVL20@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:43:46 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <5482D94B.2070102@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.175 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:179143 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 02:24:11 -0800 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: esr@thyrsus.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >=20 > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > 90% of the effort of writing good documentation is not producing = markup >=20 > True, but if we can make the process of writing documentation even = 5% more=20 > efficient or 5% more inviting, that could well be such a long-term = win that it's=20 > worth the conversion hassle. Sure, any optimization is for the best. But the main problems are no= t solved by that, and this thread seems to be aimed at much more than just 7% improvements. Moreover, a 7% or a 10% percent improvement does not justify a change ion our toolchain. > > if there is some language feature supported by a future Texinfo > > that is a must, I will definitely switch to it >=20 > As I recall, you had another objection to Texinfo 5: it quotes with= curly quotes=20 > =E2=80=9Clike this=E2=80=9D, not with ASCII quotes "like this", and= you are concerned that some=20 > older Info readers might be confused by the non-ASCII quotes. Yes, but as time goes by, the old viewers disappear into oblivion and cease being relevant. E.g., someone submitted a patch to make the stand-alone Info reader reasonably support curly quotes even on a Windows console. > Anyway, no matter what the reason for not upgrading, in the meantim= e we're stuck=20 > with old-technology Texinfo, and this is partly why it might be a g= ood idea to=20 > think about changing. I'm not opposed to thinking about a change; who would be? And not just think, IMO: we should try to improve Texinfo and its back-ends a= s much as we can. But that's not my point. My point is that if the alternative is AsciiDoc, then at this time th= e switch would be a disaster for the quality of the Emacs documentation= . Heck, we don't even have a decent Emacs mode for writing AsciiDoc (th= e 2 modes available out there IMO don't come close to what we have for Texinfo). Until all of this gets taken care of by the enthusiasts, o= r until some other document-writing system emerges that is significantl= y better, it makes very little sense to switch.