bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

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Hello.

I don't understand why Emacs quote Github, a non-free platform, when I
want to publish my org-blog :

M-x org-publish-all
[…]
Publishing file home/nico/Documents/Travaux/.nico/www/Tutoriels/Emacs/org-mode-listes-de-taches.org using ‘org-html-publish-to-html’
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 2237...
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 2786...
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 3397...
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 3846...
org-babel-exp process org at position 4931...
org-html-fontify-code: Please install htmlize from https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize

Surely, I think I should editing my former publications to pass Emacs
25.1 to Emacs 26.1. But I also think that Emacs must not quote GitHub.


Thank you for everything done.
Et vive le Logiciel Libre ! ^^

-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
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+----------------------------------------------------------+

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bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Floquet <n@flqt.fr>
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 16:06:05 +0200
> 
> I don't understand why Emacs quote Github, a non-free platform, when I
> want to publish my org-blog :

Could you please report this to the Org developers?

Thanks.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2018 à 18:48 +0300, Eli Zaretskii a écrit :
> Could you please report this to the Org developers? Thanks.

It's done. Thanks.

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2018 à 23:35 -0400, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
> (counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.
> 
> If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
> Is there some obstacle to that?

Thank you rms.


-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2018 à 18:48 +0300, Eli Zaretskii a écrit :
> Could you please report this to the Org developers? Thanks.

It's done. Thanks.

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2018 à 23:35 -0400, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
> (counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.
> 
> If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
> Is there some obstacle to that?

Thank you rms.


-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
(counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.

If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
Is there some obstacle to that?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
(counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.

If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
Is there some obstacle to that?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
> Is there some obstacle to that?

Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
> Is there some obstacle to that?

Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)

Re: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
> Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)

This has been discussed before on the Org mailing list.

From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
instead of htmlize.

Re: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Samuel Wales]

(htmlize-buffer-substring-no-invisible b e)

is this function available in emacs?

if not, it would be good to extract it and put it in emacs, or write
one for emacs.


On 9/13/18, Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
>> Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)
>
> This has been discussed before on the Org mailing list.
>
> From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
> just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
> instead of htmlize.
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: <http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com>

The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY
can get it at any time.

"You’ve really gotta quit this and get moving, because this is murder
by neglect." ---
<http://www.meaction.net/2017/02/03/pwme-people-with-me-are-being-murdered-by-neglect>.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

(htmlize-buffer-substring-no-invisible b e)

is this function available in emacs?

if not, it would be good to extract it and put it in emacs, or write
one for emacs.


On 9/13/18, Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
>> Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)
>
> This has been discussed before on the Org mailing list.
>
> From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
> just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
> instead of htmlize.
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: <http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com>

The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY
can get it at any time.

"You’ve really gotta quit this and get moving, because this is murder
by neglect." ---
<http://www.meaction.net/2017/02/03/pwme-people-with-me-are-being-murdered-by-neglect>.

Re: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Samuel Wales]

(htmlize-buffer-substring-no-invisible b e)

is this function available in emacs?

if not, it would be good to extract it and put it in emacs, or write
one for emacs.


On 9/13/18, Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
>> Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)
>
> This has been discussed before on the Org mailing list.
>
> From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
> just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
> instead of htmlize.
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: <http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com>

The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY
can get it at any time.

"You’ve really gotta quit this and get moving, because this is murder
by neglect." ---
<http://www.meaction.net/2017/02/03/pwme-people-with-me-are-being-murdered-by-neglect>.

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Samuel Wales]

(htmlize-buffer-substring-no-invisible b e)

is this function available in emacs?

if not, it would be good to extract it and put it in emacs, or write
one for emacs.


On 9/13/18, Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
>> Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)
>
> This has been discussed before on the Org mailing list.
>
> From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
> just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
> instead of htmlize.
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: <http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com>

The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY
can get it at any time.

"You’ve really gotta quit this and get moving, because this is murder
by neglect." ---
<http://www.meaction.net/2017/02/03/pwme-people-with-me-are-being-murdered-by-neglect>.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
  > just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
  > instead of htmlize.

To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 22:55:15 -0400
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr
> 
>   > >From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
>   > just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
>   > instead of htmlize.
> 
> To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?

This is an Org issue, so I would like to hear from Org developers
before I make up my mind.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> This is an Org issue, so I would like to hear from Org developers
> before I make up my mind.

I read the thread multiple times already but I do not understand exactly
the issue risen.

From the OP: "Emacs quotes Github, a non-free platform." If that's the
real problem, we can remove the location of the "htmlize" library from
the error message and be done with it. Note that the Org manual still
talks about iOS and Android, which are not free either.

From Richard Stallman: "Emacs should not advise people to load anything
from outside Emacs". Org Export already advises people to load LaTeX
libraries, MathJax, optionally minted, etc. Org Babel requires external
libraries like "asy-mode.el" (ob-asymptote.el), "simple-httpd"
(ob-js.el)... This is a non-issue for us, because it is inherent to Org
and thus cannot be solved by Org.

From Glenn Morris: "Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2. Is
there some obstacle to Org using that?" This is begging for a specific
solution to a not-so-well defined problem. In any case, Kaushal Modi
answered this one. It is nice if this happens, but could we first define
correctly the problem so we can tell if this is the only possible
solution for it?

From Richard Stallman: "To motivate people to do this, I say we should
not ship another release with that reference to GitHub." The issue
pointed out here seems to be that Org developers or enthusiasts are not
motivated enough to make Org use htmlfontify instead of htmlize. Note
this is very different from the initial report. Richard Stallman then
suggests a possible fix for that issue. It may or may not work; after
all these years spent in education, "motivating people" is a topic that
mostly eludes me. Anyway, since this point contains both the question
and the answer, I don't know what Org could do about it.

This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org developers to
solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who is willing to give
them a hand?

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> This is an Org issue, so I would like to hear from Org developers
> before I make up my mind.

I read the thread multiple times already but I do not understand exactly
the issue risen.

From the OP: "Emacs quotes Github, a non-free platform." If that's the
real problem, we can remove the location of the "htmlize" library from
the error message and be done with it. Note that the Org manual still
talks about iOS and Android, which are not free either.

From Richard Stallman: "Emacs should not advise people to load anything
from outside Emacs". Org Export already advises people to load LaTeX
libraries, MathJax, optionally minted, etc. Org Babel requires external
libraries like "asy-mode.el" (ob-asymptote.el), "simple-httpd"
(ob-js.el)... This is a non-issue for us, because it is inherent to Org
and thus cannot be solved by Org.

From Glenn Morris: "Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2. Is
there some obstacle to Org using that?" This is begging for a specific
solution to a not-so-well defined problem. In any case, Kaushal Modi
answered this one. It is nice if this happens, but could we first define
correctly the problem so we can tell if this is the only possible
solution for it?

From Richard Stallman: "To motivate people to do this, I say we should
not ship another release with that reference to GitHub." The issue
pointed out here seems to be that Org developers or enthusiasts are not
motivated enough to make Org use htmlfontify instead of htmlize. Note
this is very different from the initial report. Richard Stallman then
suggests a possible fix for that issue. It may or may not work; after
all these years spent in education, "motivating people" is a topic that
mostly eludes me. Anyway, since this point contains both the question
and the answer, I don't know what Org could do about it.

This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org developers to
solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who is willing to give
them a hand?

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:37:15 +0200
> 
> This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org developers to
> solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who is willing to give
> them a hand?

From my POV, the immediate problem is to switch Org-publish from using
htmlize to htmlfontify.  Can this be done, please?

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:49:27 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> > Cc: rms@gnu.org,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,
> > 32722@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:37:15 +0200
> > 
> > This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org
> > developers to solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who
> > is willing to give them a hand?  
> 
> From my POV, the immediate problem is to switch Org-publish from using
> htmlize to htmlfontify.  Can this be done, please?
> 
> 
> 

Not easily, no.  Afaik htmlfontify always creates a complete HTML
document, which htmlize doesn't.  Also, htmlize can format parts of a
buffer. which htmlfontify can't.

Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
(according to the man page) which might not be available on all
platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:

- a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
- a copy of “sed”
- a copy of the “file” command

A switch to htmlfontify might end up in rewriting a good part of
htmlfontify or some very ugly hacks.


If Hrvoje Niksic has or is willing to sign the copyright assignment
documents it will be easier to put htmlize.el into Emacs.


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
  > (according to the man page) which might not be available on all
  > platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:

  > - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
  > - a copy of “sed”
  > - a copy of the “file” command

Using them is not a problem.  Those are part of the GNU system, and
you can install the packages thru your distro's package system (but I
expect they are preinstalled anyway).

It might be an inconvenience on non-GNU systems.  We give them low
priority, but if you feel like writing code in htmlfontify to do without
them, that is ok.

I would expect it is not very hard to fix htmlfontify to solve all its
practical drawbacks.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
  > (according to the man page) which might not be available on all
  > platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:

  > - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
  > - a copy of “sed”
  > - a copy of the “file” command

Using them is not a problem.  Those are part of the GNU system, and
you can install the packages thru your distro's package system (but I
expect they are preinstalled anyway).

It might be an inconvenience on non-GNU systems.  We give them low
priority, but if you feel like writing code in htmlfontify to do without
them, that is ok.

I would expect it is not very hard to fix htmlfontify to solve all its
practical drawbacks.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:14:27 +0200
> From: Robert Klein <roklein@roklein.de>
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, n@flqt.fr,
>  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > From my POV, the immediate problem is to switch Org-publish from using
> > htmlize to htmlfontify.  Can this be done, please?
> 
> Not easily, no.  Afaik htmlfontify always creates a complete HTML
> document, which htmlize doesn't.  Also, htmlize can format parts of a
> buffer. which htmlfontify can't.

This should be very easy to fix, by using temporary buffers with a
copy of the region to produce HTML for.  Right?

> Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
> (according to the man page) which might not be available on all
> platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:
> 
> - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
> - a copy of “sed”
> - a copy of the “file” command

These are only needed if one invokes htmlfontify-copy-and-link-dir to
produce HTML for files in a directory.  Is that an important use case
for the issue at hand?  E.g., if you need to produce HTML for a region
of a buffer, these facilities seem to not be relevant, AFAIU.  Did I
miss something?

> A switch to htmlfontify might end up in rewriting a good part of
> htmlfontify or some very ugly hacks.

I wonder whether we could begin by just supporting the immediate use
case(s) in point, maybe that is possible without too much rewriting.

> If Hrvoje Niksic has or is willing to sign the copyright assignment
> documents it will be easier to put htmlize.el into Emacs.

We've been through this several times in the past: it isn't going to
happen.  I think htmlfontify was added to Emacs for that rteason,
among others.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:14:27 +0200
> From: Robert Klein <roklein@roklein.de>
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, n@flqt.fr,
>  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> 
> > From my POV, the immediate problem is to switch Org-publish from using
> > htmlize to htmlfontify.  Can this be done, please?
> 
> Not easily, no.  Afaik htmlfontify always creates a complete HTML
> document, which htmlize doesn't.  Also, htmlize can format parts of a
> buffer. which htmlfontify can't.

This should be very easy to fix, by using temporary buffers with a
copy of the region to produce HTML for.  Right?

> Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
> (according to the man page) which might not be available on all
> platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:
> 
> - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
> - a copy of “sed”
> - a copy of the “file” command

These are only needed if one invokes htmlfontify-copy-and-link-dir to
produce HTML for files in a directory.  Is that an important use case
for the issue at hand?  E.g., if you need to produce HTML for a region
of a buffer, these facilities seem to not be relevant, AFAIU.  Did I
miss something?

> A switch to htmlfontify might end up in rewriting a good part of
> htmlfontify or some very ugly hacks.

I wonder whether we could begin by just supporting the immediate use
case(s) in point, maybe that is possible without too much rewriting.

> If Hrvoje Niksic has or is willing to sign the copyright assignment
> documents it will be easier to put htmlize.el into Emacs.

We've been through this several times in the past: it isn't going to
happen.  I think htmlfontify was added to Emacs for that rteason,
among others.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:49:27 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> > Cc: rms@gnu.org,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,
> > 32722@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:37:15 +0200
> > 
> > This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org
> > developers to solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who
> > is willing to give them a hand?  
> 
> From my POV, the immediate problem is to switch Org-publish from using
> htmlize to htmlfontify.  Can this be done, please?
> 
> 
> 

Not easily, no.  Afaik htmlfontify always creates a complete HTML
document, which htmlize doesn't.  Also, htmlize can format parts of a
buffer. which htmlfontify can't.

Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
(according to the man page) which might not be available on all
platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:

- a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
- a copy of “sed”
- a copy of the “file” command

A switch to htmlfontify might end up in rewriting a good part of
htmlfontify or some very ugly hacks.


If Hrvoje Niksic has or is willing to sign the copyright assignment
documents it will be easier to put htmlize.el into Emacs.


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:37:15 +0200
> 
> This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org developers to
> solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who is willing to give
> them a hand?

From my POV, the immediate problem is to switch Org-publish from using
htmlize to htmlfontify.  Can this be done, please?

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nick Dokos]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org developers to
>> solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who is willing to give
>> them a hand?
>
> From my POV, the immediate problem is to switch Org-publish from using
> htmlize to htmlfontify.  Can this be done, please?
>

Why is that a problem? What do we gain by doing that? What do we lose by staying put
on htmlize?

These are not rhetorical questions: I really don't understand the problem.

-- 
Nick

"There are only two hard problems in computer science: cache
invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors." -Martin Fowler

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:22 AM Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is that a problem? What do we gain by doing that? What do we lose by staying put
> on htmlize?
>
> These are not rhetorical questions: I really don't understand the problem.
>
> --
> Nick

I also don't get the problem. The software is free. If people don't
like the non-free JS on GitHub, they can get htmlize.el using a simple
wget or curl from
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/master/htmlize.el.

In any case, I have asked the htmlize.el author if he is willing to
assing his copyright to FSF in this GitHub Issue[0] for anyone
interested.

[0]: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/23

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1073 bytes --]

Le mardi 18 septembre 2018 à 11:37 +0200, Nicolas Goaziou a écrit :
> I read the thread multiple times already but I do not understand
> exactly the issue risen.

Actually, it's an ethical issue. That are not always easily solved with
technical solutions, I guess…

> From the OP: "Emacs quotes Github, a non-free platform." If that's
> the real problem, we can remove the location of the "htmlize" library
> from the error message and be done with it.

Indeed.

> Note that the Org manual still talks about iOS and Android, which are
> not free either.

It's true. I don't know what to think about this.


-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1073 bytes --]

Le mardi 18 septembre 2018 à 11:37 +0200, Nicolas Goaziou a écrit :
> I read the thread multiple times already but I do not understand
> exactly the issue risen.

Actually, it's an ethical issue. That are not always easily solved with
technical solutions, I guess…

> From the OP: "Emacs quotes Github, a non-free platform." If that's
> the real problem, we can remove the location of the "htmlize" library
> from the error message and be done with it.

Indeed.

> Note that the Org manual still talks about iOS and Android, which are
> not free either.

It's true. I don't know what to think about this.


-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Horn]

Nicolas Floquet writes:

> Actually, it's an ethical issue. That are not always easily solved with
> technical solutions, I guess…
>

Perhaps you could clarify the ethical issues.  The initial RMS comment
on this issue in this thread is:

/* from RMS email

Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
(counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.

If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
Is there some obstacle to that?

*/

I can hypothesize various ethical, marketing, operational, and user
experience reasons for not advising people to load ...

Could you explain the ethical issue(s) that are of specific concern.

Further from RMS was the suggested technical fix

/* from RMS email later in thread
To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
*/

This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.  I
could accept a change such as replacing that reference with text saying
"use ???? to find html..."  I'm not sure what to suggest since Google,
duck-duck-go, and other search engines are all commercial non-free
operations.

Rehosting onto a free platform, perhaps gnu.org, might be an option.  A
simple mirror onto a free platform might suffice.  Linux, python, and
other major open source efforts deal with platform issues by providing
their own primary distribution platform.

I can seem some ethical concerns with using a proprietary platform.  Git
was created due to problems with a dependency on a proprietary platform,
although in that case it was more related to a divergence in business
strategic directions than ethical issues.

--
Robert Horn
rjhorniii@gmail.com

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Horn <rjhorn@panix.com>
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:37:45 -0400
> 
> /* from RMS email later in thread
> To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
> */
> 
> This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.

We have quite a few references to GitHub in Emacs, just grep for it.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Horn <rjhorn@panix.com>
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:37:45 -0400
> 
> /* from RMS email later in thread
> To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
> */
> 
> This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.

We have quite a few references to GitHub in Emacs, just grep for it.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:53:14 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Robert Horn <rjhorn@panix.com>
> > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Eli Zaretskii
> > <eliz@gnu.org>, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> > rms@gnu.org Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:37:45 -0400
> > 
> > /* from RMS email later in thread
> > To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> > release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
> > */
> > 
> > This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.  
> 
> We have quite a few references to GitHub in Emacs, just grep for it.
> 
> 
> 

That's, what the original message on the bug list refers to, however.

I think the original bug report is bogus.  Especially in view of your
statement above.

As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
external stuff (just as htmlfontify does, see my mail and its manual:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/htmlfontify.html#Requirements).

The reason, e.g. LaTeX isn't mentioned explicitly in the manual or in
org is that it is a well-known software.  The link is only given as a
friendly hint.  


Also, in regards to the original bug report, while htmlize is _hosted_
on github, which indeed is not free, htmlize itself _is_ free.  Right
at the beginning of htmlize.el it says:

;; This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
;; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
;; the Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option)
;; any later version.

When the original poster doesn't want to use htmlize, he probably
should try to export without fontifying source code (I think there's a
switch, but I'm not sure).


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:53:14 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Robert Horn <rjhorn@panix.com>
> > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Eli Zaretskii
> > <eliz@gnu.org>, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> > rms@gnu.org Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:37:45 -0400
> > 
> > /* from RMS email later in thread
> > To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> > release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
> > */
> > 
> > This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.  
> 
> We have quite a few references to GitHub in Emacs, just grep for it.
> 
> 
> 

That's, what the original message on the bug list refers to, however.

I think the original bug report is bogus.  Especially in view of your
statement above.

As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
external stuff (just as htmlfontify does, see my mail and its manual:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/htmlfontify.html#Requirements).

The reason, e.g. LaTeX isn't mentioned explicitly in the manual or in
org is that it is a well-known software.  The link is only given as a
friendly hint.  


Also, in regards to the original bug report, while htmlize is _hosted_
on github, which indeed is not free, htmlize itself _is_ free.  Right
at the beginning of htmlize.el it says:

;; This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
;; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
;; the Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option)
;; any later version.

When the original poster doesn't want to use htmlize, he probably
should try to export without fontifying source code (I think there's a
switch, but I'm not sure).


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:53 PM Robert Klein <roklein@roklein.de> wrote:

> When the original poster doesn't want to use htmlize, he probably
> should try to export without fontifying source code (I think there's a
> switch, but I'm not sure).

Setting org-html-htmlize-output-type to nil will not prompt the user
to install htmlize. With that setting, code blocks will not be
htmlized, and instead just exported as plain text.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:53 PM Robert Klein <roklein@roklein.de> wrote:

> When the original poster doesn't want to use htmlize, he probably
> should try to export without fontifying source code (I think there's a
> switch, but I'm not sure).

Setting org-html-htmlize-output-type to nil will not prompt the user
to install htmlize. With that setting, code blocks will not be
htmlized, and instead just exported as plain text.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

Hello all,

I heard back from htmlize.el author Hrvoje Nikšić in his repo's issue thread[0].

So here's the summary:

- Hrvoje Nikšić does not want to assign the copyright of htmlize to
FSF. So it cannot be part of Emacs, Org mode or even GNU Elpa.
- The package will keep living in its GitHub repo.

1. If user has issues with GitHub's non-free JS:

- Download htmlize directly from
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/master/htmlize.el.

2. If user does not want to use htmlize, or want Org mode to suggest
installing it from GitHub, set org-html-htmlize-output-type to nil.

Note that the htmlize.el package by itself is GPLv2, so it is free.

Does this settle the issue?

[0]: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/23

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

Hello all,

I heard back from htmlize.el author Hrvoje Nikšić in his repo's issue thread[0].

So here's the summary:

- Hrvoje Nikšić does not want to assign the copyright of htmlize to
FSF. So it cannot be part of Emacs, Org mode or even GNU Elpa.
- The package will keep living in its GitHub repo.

1. If user has issues with GitHub's non-free JS:

- Download htmlize directly from
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/master/htmlize.el.

2. If user does not want to use htmlize, or want Org mode to suggest
installing it from GitHub, set org-html-htmlize-output-type to nil.

Note that the htmlize.el package by itself is GPLv2, so it is free.

Does this settle the issue?

[0]: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/23

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I heard back from htmlize.el author Hrvoje Nikšić in his repo's issue thread[0].

Thanks for asking him.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I heard back from htmlize.el author Hrvoje Nikšić in his repo's issue thread[0].

Thanks for asking him.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
  > external stuff

Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation.

The ability to work with some other free software package (for
instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all.

Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship
with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some
separate job and that's what the user wants to do.

However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package
installation system by telling users to install things directly.

Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests
loading something else?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
  > external stuff

Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation.

The ability to work with some other free software package (for
instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all.

Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship
with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some
separate job and that's what the user wants to do.

However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package
installation system by telling users to install things directly.

Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests
loading something else?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[I sent this message a week ago but did not get a response.
Could we get the discussion moving again?]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
  > external stuff

Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation.

The ability to work with some other free software package (for
instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all.

Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship
with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some
separate job and that's what the user wants to do.

However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package
installation system by telling users to install things directly.

Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests
loading something else?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[I sent this message a week ago but did not get a response.
Could we get the discussion moving again?]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
  > external stuff

Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation.

The ability to work with some other free software package (for
instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all.

Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship
with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some
separate job and that's what the user wants to do.

However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package
installation system by telling users to install things directly.

Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests
loading something else?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Glenn Morris]

I think (or rather assume) that the issue is that GitHub receives
a grade F ("unacceptable") evaluation acccording to the GNU Ethical Repository
Criteria; https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html.
So does SourceForge, by the way. While there are numerous references
to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Glenn Morris]

I think (or rather assume) that the issue is that GitHub receives
a grade F ("unacceptable") evaluation acccording to the GNU Ethical Repository
Criteria; https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html.
So does SourceForge, by the way. While there are numerous references
to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> I think (or rather assume) that the issue is that GitHub receives
> a grade F ("unacceptable") evaluation acccording to the GNU Ethical Repository
> Criteria; https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html.
> So does SourceForge, by the way. While there are numerous references
> to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
> live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
> running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
> something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
> wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
not fontified.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> I think (or rather assume) that the issue is that GitHub receives
> a grade F ("unacceptable") evaluation acccording to the GNU Ethical Repository
> Criteria; https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html.
> So does SourceForge, by the way. While there are numerous references
> to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
> live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
> running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
> something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
> wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
not fontified.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Amin Bandali]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
> to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
> not fontified.

I was going to suggest a less harsher and potentially more
helpful approach: in the short term, mirror the htmlize repo on
code.orgmode.org, the official Gogs instance where Org mode is
hosted and developed.  In the long term, work on replacing
htmlize with htmlfontify.

I set up a mirror: https://code.orgmode.org/aminb/emacs-htmlize

Assuming code.orgmode.org uses Gogs' default mirror settings, the
repo should be automatically synchronized with upstream roughly
every 8 hours or so.

This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

  -amin

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:24 PM Amin Bandali <amin@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> I set up a mirror: https://code.orgmode.org/aminb/emacs-htmlize
>
> Assuming code.orgmode.org uses Gogs' default mirror settings, the
> repo should be automatically synchronized with upstream roughly
> every 8 hours or so.
>
> This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
> address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
> proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
> maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
> freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].

So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

[0]: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/23#issuecomment-422946622

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:24 PM Amin Bandali <amin@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> I set up a mirror: https://code.orgmode.org/aminb/emacs-htmlize
>
> Assuming code.orgmode.org uses Gogs' default mirror settings, the
> repo should be automatically synchronized with upstream roughly
> every 8 hours or so.
>
> This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
> address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
> proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
> maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
> freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].

So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

[0]: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/23#issuecomment-422946622

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
  > > address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
  > > proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
  > > maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
  > > freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

  > I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].

  > So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

No, it is not ok.
We still need to replace htmlize.

The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it
blurs the distinction between Emacs itself
and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs.
We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

Please leave the code to suggest loading htmlize deactivated.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
  > > address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
  > > proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
  > > maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
  > > freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

  > I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].

  > So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

No, it is not ok.
We still need to replace htmlize.

The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it
blurs the distinction between Emacs itself
and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs.
We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

Please leave the code to suggest loading htmlize deactivated.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:54:30 -0400
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, amin@gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	rjhorniii@gmail.com
> 
> Please leave the code to suggest loading htmlize deactivated.

There's no such code.  There's a function that, if invoked, signals an
error with this text:

  "Cannot fontify source block (htmlize.el >= 1.34 required)"

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:54:30 -0400
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, amin@gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	rjhorniii@gmail.com
> 
> Please leave the code to suggest loading htmlize deactivated.

There's no such code.  There's a function that, if invoked, signals an
error with this text:

  "Cannot fontify source block (htmlize.el >= 1.34 required)"

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:57 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it
> blurs the distinction between Emacs itself
> and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs.
> We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
be discouraged?  If not, htmlize is on MELPA and could be referenced
there.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:57 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it
> blurs the distinction between Emacs itself
> and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs.
> We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
be discouraged?  If not, htmlize is on MELPA and could be referenced
there.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
  > be discouraged?

The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends".  Whether
a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its
semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it
references -- and on circumstances.

Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances.

The first question is, does the references tend to encourage,
recommend, or lead users to install and use some outside software?  If
it doesn't, there isn't an issue.  In that case, it would normally be a
comment in the code, not a message shown to the Emacs user.

If it does tend to lead users to install some program, the next
question is, is that program free?  If not, it may be a moral problem,
but that depends.  If the code encourages uses of Emacs by users of
widely used nonfree program Foo, that's ok.  If the code encourages
use of nonfree program Foo by users of Emacs, that's bad, so we should
remove the message _and_ the code immediately.

If the other program is free, the next question is, should this job be
done by part of Emacs, or should it be separate?

If logically it should be a separate program, such as find, GCC or
LaTeX, then it is fine to encourage Emacs users to install it and for
Emacs to invoke it.

If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the
job with code that IS part of Emacs.  We could do that by merging the
program into Emacs, or packaging it with Emacs, if those are possible.
Or we could do it by writing new code.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Fri, Sep 21 2018, Richard Stallman wrote:

>   > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
>   > be discouraged?
>
> The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends".  Whether
> a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its
> semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it
> references -- and on circumstances.
>
> Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances.

Thank you for the thorough answer.

I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to
encourage interested users to install outside, free, software.

> If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the
> job with code that IS part of Emacs.

At the moment the only *possible* example for this category that I found
among the references to code on MELPA is BBDB -- but I assume that
there's a longstanding decision that BBDB is best kept separate.

(And back to the main theme it seems clear that what htmlize does should
logically be part of Emacs.)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Fri, Sep 21 2018, Richard Stallman wrote:

>   > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
>   > be discouraged?
>
> The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends".  Whether
> a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its
> semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it
> references -- and on circumstances.
>
> Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances.

Thank you for the thorough answer.

I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to
encourage interested users to install outside, free, software.

> If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the
> job with code that IS part of Emacs.

At the moment the only *possible* example for this category that I found
among the references to code on MELPA is BBDB -- but I assume that
there's a longstanding decision that BBDB is best kept separate.

(And back to the main theme it seems clear that what htmlize does should
logically be part of Emacs.)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to
  > encourage interested users to install outside, free, software.

Could you tell me about these, one by one, off the list?
(First, roughly how many are there?)

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to
  > encourage interested users to install outside, free, software.

Could you tell me about these, one by one, off the list?
(First, roughly how many are there?)

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
  > be discouraged?

The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends".  Whether
a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its
semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it
references -- and on circumstances.

Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances.

The first question is, does the references tend to encourage,
recommend, or lead users to install and use some outside software?  If
it doesn't, there isn't an issue.  In that case, it would normally be a
comment in the code, not a message shown to the Emacs user.

If it does tend to lead users to install some program, the next
question is, is that program free?  If not, it may be a moral problem,
but that depends.  If the code encourages uses of Emacs by users of
widely used nonfree program Foo, that's ok.  If the code encourages
use of nonfree program Foo by users of Emacs, that's bad, so we should
remove the message _and_ the code immediately.

If the other program is free, the next question is, should this job be
done by part of Emacs, or should it be separate?

If logically it should be a separate program, such as find, GCC or
LaTeX, then it is fine to encourage Emacs users to install it and for
Emacs to invoke it.

If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the
job with code that IS part of Emacs.  We could do that by merging the
program into Emacs, or packaging it with Emacs, if those are possible.
Or we could do it by writing new code.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:16:28 -0400
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, n@flqt.fr, 
> 	Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Horn <rjhorniii@gmail.com>, 
> 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].
> 
> So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
questions about that in this discussion, see

  https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95

Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
it's a better solution.

TIA

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

Hi,
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 08:43:19 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:16:28 -0400
> > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Glenn Morris
> > <rgm@gnu.org>, n@flqt.fr, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
> > 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Horn <rjhorniii@gmail.com>, Eli
> > Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> > 
> > I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your
> > mirror[0].
> > 
> > So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in
> > ox-html?  
> 
> I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
> questions about that in this discussion, see
> 
>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95
> 
> Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
> it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
> it's a better solution.

Not an “Org developer” -- I guess mostly Nicolas Goaziou can claim that
title at the moment with two thirds of all commits last year..

As to your questions:

> This should be very easy to fix, by using temporary buffers with a
> copy of the region to produce HTML for.  Right?

plus removing HTML document headers and footers, remove css stuff,
rework this, so we have css to include in the final document...


> > Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
> > (according to the man page) which might not be available on all
> > platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:
> > 
> > - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
> > - a copy of “sed”
> > - a copy of the “file” command
> 
> These are only needed if one invokes htmlfontify-copy-and-link-dir to
> produce HTML for files in a directory.  Is that an important use case
> for the issue at hand?  E.g., if you need to produce HTML for a region
> of a buffer, these facilities seem to not be relevant, AFAIU.  Did I
> miss something?

No. At that moment in the discussion it wasn't clear the issue with htmlize (and github) has been seen fundamentally different by non-org people as opposed to people developing and using org-mode.

> > A switch to htmlfontify might end up in rewriting a good part of
> > htmlfontify or some very ugly hacks.
> 
> I wonder whether we could begin by just supporting the immediate use
> case(s) in point, maybe that is possible without too much rewriting.

See above.

> > If Hrvoje Niksic has or is willing to sign the copyright assignment
> > documents it will be easier to put htmlize.el into Emacs.
> 
> We've been through this several times in the past: it isn't going to
> happen.  I think htmlfontify was added to Emacs for that rteason,
> among others.

Sorry, didn't know there's a history.


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

Hi,
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 08:43:19 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:16:28 -0400
> > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Glenn Morris
> > <rgm@gnu.org>, n@flqt.fr, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
> > 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Horn <rjhorniii@gmail.com>, Eli
> > Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> > 
> > I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your
> > mirror[0].
> > 
> > So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in
> > ox-html?  
> 
> I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
> questions about that in this discussion, see
> 
>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95
> 
> Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
> it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
> it's a better solution.

Not an “Org developer” -- I guess mostly Nicolas Goaziou can claim that
title at the moment with two thirds of all commits last year..

As to your questions:

> This should be very easy to fix, by using temporary buffers with a
> copy of the region to produce HTML for.  Right?

plus removing HTML document headers and footers, remove css stuff,
rework this, so we have css to include in the final document...


> > Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
> > (according to the man page) which might not be available on all
> > platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:
> > 
> > - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
> > - a copy of “sed”
> > - a copy of the “file” command
> 
> These are only needed if one invokes htmlfontify-copy-and-link-dir to
> produce HTML for files in a directory.  Is that an important use case
> for the issue at hand?  E.g., if you need to produce HTML for a region
> of a buffer, these facilities seem to not be relevant, AFAIU.  Did I
> miss something?

No. At that moment in the discussion it wasn't clear the issue with htmlize (and github) has been seen fundamentally different by non-org people as opposed to people developing and using org-mode.

> > A switch to htmlfontify might end up in rewriting a good part of
> > htmlfontify or some very ugly hacks.
> 
> I wonder whether we could begin by just supporting the immediate use
> case(s) in point, maybe that is possible without too much rewriting.

See above.

> > If Hrvoje Niksic has or is willing to sign the copyright assignment
> > documents it will be easier to put htmlize.el into Emacs.
> 
> We've been through this several times in the past: it isn't going to
> happen.  I think htmlfontify was added to Emacs for that rteason,
> among others.

Sorry, didn't know there's a history.


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
> questions about that in this discussion, see
>
>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95
>
> Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
> it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
> it's a better solution.

I cannot evaluate the difficulty to adapt "ox-html.el" to htmlfontify.
I know nothing about either this specific part of the code base or
htmlize and I do not use it either.

However, I see that "ox-odt.el" already uses htmlfontify, so it might be
possible to use a similar mechanism.

I assume this is the only way out of this, so I'll have a look at it.
But I need time. What would help would be some feedback from users
actually tweaking `org-html-htmlize-output-type'. What do they expect
from the various values, etc.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Adam Porter]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> I assume this is the only way out of this, so I'll have a look at it.
> But I need time. What would help would be some feedback from users
> actually tweaking `org-html-htmlize-output-type'. What do they expect
> from the various values, etc.

I don't understand what's going on here.

The stated problem is that users were encouraged to install software by
visiting GitHub's web site, which uses non-free JavaScript.

It is not, in fact, necessary to execute that JavaScript to use the site
or download htmlize.el.  Emacs' built-in eww browser can be used to
access the site and download the file.  Even Git itself can directly
clone from a URL like http://github.com/username/reponame.  So there is
absolutely no requirement to execute non-free software to retrieve
software from GitHub.  So the stated problem seems moot in the first
place.

Assuming that we would rather go the extra mile and not even direct
users to GitHub, it's been mentioned by two users on this list that the
official htmlize.el repo has been mirrored to code.orgmode.org, with a
cron job to update it every 8 hours, and that this has the official
blessing of the htmlize.el author.  This provides a guilt-free URL to
which users may be directed to retrieve htmlize.el.  This also solves
the stated problem.

That's two solutions to the stated problem.

Yet, we are still talking about rewriting complicated, unfamiliar code
which users depend on, at great cost in time and significant risk of
regressions, and I have not seen any technical reasons for doing so.

Why?  What's going on?

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 987 bytes --]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 7:19 PM Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net> wrote:

>
> Why?  What's going on?
>

I kind of get why the rewrite needs to happen. But I also see that this
rewrite is an unfortunate waste of time and resources.

The reason is the same why a core Emacs package wouldn't rely on a non-core
package, no matter how useful or awesome that package might be.

For example, we cannot have a core package, say vc.el rely on hydra.el even
though it's in GNU Elpa. It would have been awesome to see all the vc
actions in the hydra interface, but that cannot happen until hydra.el is
part of the core.

With Org/ox-html, it's the same thing. Ox-html is part of Emacs core. So it
cannot rely on htmlize.el. The author doesn't want to assign the copyright
of the package to FSF. So it cannot be a part of Emacs core (or even GNU
Elpa).

[Captain hindsight: htmlize.el shouldn't have been used in ox-html in the
first place without the author having assigned the copyright to FSF.]

>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1687 bytes --]

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Adam Porter]

Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> writes:

> With Org/ox-html, it's the same thing. Ox-html is part of Emacs
> core. So it cannot rely on htmlize.el.

1.  Why not?  I just git-blamed this line in ox-html.el:

  (declare-function htmlize-region "ext:htmlize" (beg end))

It's from February, 2012.  That's 6 and a half years, at least, that
that code has been present.  Why are we suddenly concerned about it?

2.  Is Org part of "Emacs core"?  I didn't think that was how "Emacs
core" was defined, but I may be wrong.  It is officially part of Emacs,
of course.  So is there a distinction between "part of Emacs" and "Emacs
core"?  If so, is there a difference in policy for those two categories,
and is that policy written anywhere?  Are there any other "time bombs"
in Org that we should be concerned about?

3.  Yesterday, RMS posted this:

> The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it blurs the
> distinction between Emacs itself and Lisp code that is not part of
> Emacs.  We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

a.  That is not the originally stated problem.

b.  I don't understand how htmlize blurs the distinction between Emacs
itself and other lisp code.  htmlize is not distributed with Emacs nor
Org, and it must be manually retrieved from a third-party repository.
Isn't that very much distinct from Emacs itself?  Doesn't telling users
that they must download and install it separately highlight that
distinction?

4.  I'm certainly in favor of using built-in libraries as much as
possible.  If htmlfontify is a better or equivalent solution, and
someone's willing to write the code and ensure there are no regressions,
that would be great, because it would save users from having to manually
install other packages to get expected functionality.

5.  Having a passing familiarity with the complexity of the Org code
base, I am concerned about the potential for regressions in
functionality and usability.  I'm also a bit disappointed to see this
burden potentially thrust upon Nicolas and other Org maintainers, to
replace working code that's existed for over 6 years, for little-to-no
technical reason.  Their time available for working on Org is very
valuable.

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:55 PM Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net> wrote:

> 1.  Why not?  I just git-blamed this line in ox-html.el:
>
>   (declare-function htmlize-region "ext:htmlize" (beg end))
>
> It's from February, 2012.  That's 6 and a half years, at least, that
> that code has been present.  Why are we suddenly concerned about it?

I just so happens that someone recently filed this bug report:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722.

htmlize.el was living in the Org contrib directory until Aug 2017:

=====
commit d0ced98943da0e5851ba1145515db27e939bff08
Author: Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>
Date:   Fri Aug 18 09:54:19 2017 +0200

    Delete htmlize.el from Org’s contrib directory

    * lisp/ox-org.el (org-org-publish-to-org):
    * lisp/ox-html.el (org-html-htmlize-generate-css):
    (org-html-fontify-code):
    * lisp/org-agenda.el (org-agenda-write): Throw an error
    requesting the user to install htmlize.el.

    * doc/org.texi (Exporting agenda views, Literal examples):
    Don’t assume htmlize.el is available.

    You need to install it from https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize

    See https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/7 for this issue.

diff --git a/lisp/ox-html.el b/lisp/ox-html.el
--- a/lisp/ox-html.el
+++ b/lisp/ox-html.el
@@ -1746,1 +1747,1 @@
-  (require 'htmlize)
+      (error "Please install htmlize from
https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize"))
=====

That change lived in Org master branch (devel) for a while, then
propagated to Org 9.1 and eventually to Emacs 26.1 release. So users
switching from Emacs 25.3 to 26.1. would see as an abrupt change, when
in fact it's just that htmlize.el got removed from contrib and instead
started being correctly referenced to its source on GitHub.

> 2.  Is Org part of "Emacs core"?  I didn't think that was how "Emacs
> core" was defined, but I may be wrong.  It is officially part of Emacs,
> of course.  So is there a distinction between "part of Emacs" and "Emacs
> core"?

Sorry, please don't quote me on that. By "Emacs core", I meant all
packages that you can get from an Emacs installation without having to
fetch one from internet.

> Are there any other "time bombs"
> in Org that we should be concerned about?

Not that I know of. I think this is the only one.

> a.  That is not the originally stated problem.

Yes, I know. The original problem was GitHub, and it snowballed to
"htmlize cannot be fetched from outside Emacs". It's just so happens
that someone noticed it and filed a bug report. In Emacs 25.3, if
htmlize weren't installed, it would have thrown an error when (require
'htmlize) got executed (or not, if people were using org-plus-contrib
which htmlize was part of, until Aug 2017).

> 4.  I'm certainly in favor of using built-in libraries as much as
> possible.  If htmlfontify is a better or equivalent solution, and
> someone's willing to write the code and ensure there are no regressions,
> that would be great, because it would save users from having to manually
> install other packages to get expected functionality.

+1

> 5.  Having a passing familiarity with the complexity of the Org code
> base, I am concerned about the potential for regressions in
> functionality and usability.  I'm also a bit disappointed to see this
> burden potentially thrust upon Nicolas and other Org maintainers, to
> replace working code that's existed for over 6 years, for little-to-no
> technical reason.  Their time available for working on Org is very
> valuable.

That's my concern too. And I think that it's mainly Nicolas, and in
another thread, he mentioned that he will do this refactoring, but
without an urgency (which makes sense).

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
> questions about that in this discussion, see
>
>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95
>
> Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
> it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
> it's a better solution.

I cannot evaluate the difficulty to adapt "ox-html.el" to htmlfontify.
I know nothing about either this specific part of the code base or
htmlize and I do not use it either.

However, I see that "ox-odt.el" already uses htmlfontify, so it might be
possible to use a similar mechanism.

I assume this is the only way out of this, so I'll have a look at it.
But I need time. What would help would be some feedback from users
actually tweaking `org-html-htmlize-output-type'. What do they expect
from the various values, etc.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>,  amin@gnu.org,  rgm@gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  rjhorniii@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:17:51 +0200
> 
> I assume this is the only way out of this, so I'll have a look at it.

Thank you.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>

>> I assume this is the only way out of this, so I'll have a look at it.
>
> Thank you.

In an attempt to move Org from htmlize to htmlfontify, I'm encountering
an issue with the generated CSS. Exporting the same simple document with
htmlize, I get:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
    <style type="text/css">
    <!--
      body {
        color: #b2b2b2;
        background-color: #292b2e;
      }
      .bold {
        /* bold */
        font-weight: bold;
      }
      .comment {
        /* font-lock-comment-face */
        color: #2aa1ae;
      }
      .function-name {
        /* font-lock-function-name-face */
        color: #bc6ec5;
        font-weight: bold;
      }
      .italic {
        /* italic */
        font-style: italic;
      }
      .keyword {
        /* font-lock-keyword-face */
        color: #4f97d7;
        font-weight: bold;
      }
      .org-block {
        /* org-block */
        color: #cbc1d5;
        background-color: #2f2b33;
      }
      .org-block-begin-line {
        /* org-block-begin-line */
        color: #827591;
        background-color: #373040;
      }
      .org-block-end-line {
        /* org-block-end-line */
        color: #827591;
        background-color: #373040;
      }
      .org-level-1 {
        /* org-level-1 */
        color: #4f97d7;
      }
      .parenthesis {
        /* parenthesis */
        color: #686868;
      }
      .type {
        /* font-lock-type-face */
        color: #ce537a;
        font-weight: bold;
      }

      a {
        color: inherit;
        background-color: inherit;
        font: inherit;
        text-decoration: inherit;
      }
      a:hover {
        text-decoration: underline;
      }
    -->
    </style>
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Then, with htmlfontify:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
<style type="text/css"><!-- 
body { font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.default   { font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.default a { font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.italic   { font-style: italic;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.italic a { font-style: italic;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.bold   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.bold a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-block-end-line   { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-block-end-line a { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.type   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.type a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.function-name   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.function-name a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-block   { color: #cbc1d5;  background: #2f2b33;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-block a { color: #cbc1d5;  background: #2f2b33;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.keyword   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.keyword a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.parenthesis   { color: #686868;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.parenthesis a { color: #686868;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-block-begin-line   { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-block-begin-line a { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-level-1   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-level-1 a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.comment   { color: #2aa1ae;  font-style: normal;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.comment a { color: #2aa1ae;  font-style: normal;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
 --></style>
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Some users reported that htmlfontify output is too verbose (font-style,
font-family, font-size...). 

Is there a way to clean up the output from htmlfontify and include only
minimal information? It might be something related to
`hfy-default-face-def', but the documentation is not clear to me.

Thank you for any help.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>

>> I assume this is the only way out of this, so I'll have a look at it.
>
> Thank you.

In an attempt to move Org from htmlize to htmlfontify, I'm encountering
an issue with the generated CSS. Exporting the same simple document with
htmlize, I get:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
    <style type="text/css">
    <!--
      body {
        color: #b2b2b2;
        background-color: #292b2e;
      }
      .bold {
        /* bold */
        font-weight: bold;
      }
      .comment {
        /* font-lock-comment-face */
        color: #2aa1ae;
      }
      .function-name {
        /* font-lock-function-name-face */
        color: #bc6ec5;
        font-weight: bold;
      }
      .italic {
        /* italic */
        font-style: italic;
      }
      .keyword {
        /* font-lock-keyword-face */
        color: #4f97d7;
        font-weight: bold;
      }
      .org-block {
        /* org-block */
        color: #cbc1d5;
        background-color: #2f2b33;
      }
      .org-block-begin-line {
        /* org-block-begin-line */
        color: #827591;
        background-color: #373040;
      }
      .org-block-end-line {
        /* org-block-end-line */
        color: #827591;
        background-color: #373040;
      }
      .org-level-1 {
        /* org-level-1 */
        color: #4f97d7;
      }
      .parenthesis {
        /* parenthesis */
        color: #686868;
      }
      .type {
        /* font-lock-type-face */
        color: #ce537a;
        font-weight: bold;
      }

      a {
        color: inherit;
        background-color: inherit;
        font: inherit;
        text-decoration: inherit;
      }
      a:hover {
        text-decoration: underline;
      }
    -->
    </style>
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Then, with htmlfontify:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
<style type="text/css"><!-- 
body { font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.default   { font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.default a { font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.italic   { font-style: italic;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.italic a { font-style: italic;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.bold   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.bold a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-block-end-line   { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-block-end-line a { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.type   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.type a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.function-name   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.function-name a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-block   { color: #cbc1d5;  background: #2f2b33;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-block a { color: #cbc1d5;  background: #2f2b33;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.keyword   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.keyword a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.parenthesis   { color: #686868;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.parenthesis a { color: #686868;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-block-begin-line   { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-block-begin-line a { color: #827591;  background: #373040;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  font-style: normal;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.org-level-1   { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.org-level-1 a { font-weight: 700;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-style: normal;  color: #b2b2b2;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
span.comment   { color: #2aa1ae;  font-style: normal;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: none; }
span.comment a { color: #2aa1ae;  font-style: normal;  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono;  font-stretch: normal;  font-weight: 500;  background: #292b2e;  font-size: 9pt;  text-decoration: underline; }
 --></style>
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Some users reported that htmlfontify output is too verbose (font-style,
font-family, font-size...). 

Is there a way to clean up the output from htmlfontify and include only
minimal information? It might be something related to
`hfy-default-face-def', but the documentation is not clear to me.

Thank you for any help.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rgm@gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  rms@gnu.org,  amin@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  rjhorniii@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:13:39 +0200
> 
> Some users reported that htmlfontify output is too verbose (font-style,
> font-family, font-size...). 
> 
> Is there a way to clean up the output from htmlfontify and include only
> minimal information? It might be something related to
> `hfy-default-face-def', but the documentation is not clear to me.

I have no idea.  CC'ing the author in the hope that he does.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rgm@gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  rms@gnu.org,  amin@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  rjhorniii@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:13:39 +0200
> 
> Some users reported that htmlfontify output is too verbose (font-style,
> font-family, font-size...). 
> 
> Is there a way to clean up the output from htmlfontify and include only
> minimal information? It might be something related to
> `hfy-default-face-def', but the documentation is not clear to me.

I have no idea.  CC'ing the author in the hope that he does.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>,  amin@gnu.org,  rgm@gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  rjhorniii@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:17:51 +0200
> 
> I assume this is the only way out of this, so I'll have a look at it.

Thank you.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:16:28 -0400
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, n@flqt.fr, 
> 	Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Horn <rjhorniii@gmail.com>, 
> 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].
> 
> So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
questions about that in this discussion, see

  https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95

Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
it's a better solution.

TIA

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Amin Bandali]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
> to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
> not fontified.

I was going to suggest a less harsher and potentially more
helpful approach: in the short term, mirror the htmlize repo on
code.orgmode.org, the official Gogs instance where Org mode is
hosted and developed.  In the long term, work on replacing
htmlize with htmlfontify.

I set up a mirror: https://code.orgmode.org/aminb/emacs-htmlize

Assuming code.orgmode.org uses Gogs' default mirror settings, the
repo should be automatically synchronized with upstream roughly
every 8 hours or so.

This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

  -amin

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
  > to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
  > not fontified.

Thank you.  That is a step forward.

However, this is still not as it should be.  What we really need to do is
(1) get htmlize into Emacs, or
(2) use some other facility that is in Emacs.

Since it now appears we can't do (1), we should do (2).  Someone mentioned
that there was code in Emacs that we could use instead.

It isn't a rush, now, but could someone please volunteer to do this,
over the next few months?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
  > to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
  > not fontified.

Thank you.  That is a step forward.

However, this is still not as it should be.  What we really need to do is
(1) get htmlize into Emacs, or
(2) use some other facility that is in Emacs.

Since it now appears we can't do (1), we should do (2).  Someone mentioned
that there was code in Emacs that we could use instead.

It isn't a rush, now, but could someone please volunteer to do this,
over the next few months?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  rjhorniii@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 23:07:19 +0200
> 
> I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
> to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
> not fontified.

Thanks!

There's also a similar reference to htmlize in the Org manual, which
should, too, should probably be removed.

And I'd like to backport these changes to the emacs-26 branch of the
Emacs repository.  Would it be possible to apply the changes from
Org's master branch, or do we need a slightly different set of
changes?

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> There's also a similar reference to htmlize in the Org manual, which
> should, too, should probably be removed.

There are currently four occurrences of "github" in the manual:

   The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the
   /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of devices, was started by Richard
   Moreland and is now in the hands of Sean Escriva. Android users
   should check out
   [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg
   Android]] by Matt Jones.

   For HTML you need to install Hrvoje Niksic's =htmlize.el= from
   [[https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize][Hrvoje Niksic's
   repository]].

   Fontified code chunks in LaTeX can be achieved using either the
   listings package or the [[https://github.com/gpoore/minted][minted]]
   package. Refer to ~org-export-latex-listings~ for details.

If you do think that these URL need to be removed, what would you
suggest to use instead?

> And I'd like to backport these changes to the emacs-26 branch of the
> Emacs repository.  Would it be possible to apply the changes from
> Org's master branch, or do we need a slightly different set of
> changes?

I do not know about the exact process of merging Org within Emacs. You
can probably cherry-pick the changes from Org's master branch.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> There's also a similar reference to htmlize in the Org manual, which
> should, too, should probably be removed.

There are currently four occurrences of "github" in the manual:

   The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the
   /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of devices, was started by Richard
   Moreland and is now in the hands of Sean Escriva. Android users
   should check out
   [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg
   Android]] by Matt Jones.

   For HTML you need to install Hrvoje Niksic's =htmlize.el= from
   [[https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize][Hrvoje Niksic's
   repository]].

   Fontified code chunks in LaTeX can be achieved using either the
   listings package or the [[https://github.com/gpoore/minted][minted]]
   package. Refer to ~org-export-latex-listings~ for details.

If you do think that these URL need to be removed, what would you
suggest to use instead?

> And I'd like to backport these changes to the emacs-26 branch of the
> Emacs repository.  Would it be possible to apply the changes from
> Org's master branch, or do we need a slightly different set of
> changes?

I do not know about the exact process of merging Org within Emacs. You
can probably cherry-pick the changes from Org's master branch.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rgm@gnu.org,  rjhorniii@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 19:42:50 +0200
> 
> > There's also a similar reference to htmlize in the Org manual, which
> > should, too, should probably be removed.
> 
> There are currently four occurrences of "github" in the manual:
> 
>    The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the
>    /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of devices, was started by Richard
>    Moreland and is now in the hands of Sean Escriva. Android users
>    should check out
>    [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg
>    Android]] by Matt Jones.
> 
>    For HTML you need to install Hrvoje Niksic's =htmlize.el= from
>    [[https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize][Hrvoje Niksic's
>    repository]].
> 
>    Fontified code chunks in LaTeX can be achieved using either the
>    listings package or the [[https://github.com/gpoore/minted][minted]]
>    package. Refer to ~org-export-latex-listings~ for details.
> 
> If you do think that these URL need to be removed, what would you
> suggest to use instead?

I spoke only about the URL for htmlize.  Is the URL really needed?
How long will it take for people to find the package given only its
name?

Also, I understand it is available from MELPA, in which case
mentioning MELPA could be an alternative, if you think you must
specify a URL.

> > And I'd like to backport these changes to the emacs-26 branch of the
> > Emacs repository.  Would it be possible to apply the changes from
> > Org's master branch, or do we need a slightly different set of
> > changes?
> 
> I do not know about the exact process of merging Org within Emacs. You
> can probably cherry-pick the changes from Org's master branch.

I understand that, I was asking whether the changes need something
that doesn't exist in the version of Org on the emacs-26 branch.  I
understand that the answer is NO.

Thanks.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rgm@gnu.org,  rjhorniii@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 19:42:50 +0200
> 
> > There's also a similar reference to htmlize in the Org manual, which
> > should, too, should probably be removed.
> 
> There are currently four occurrences of "github" in the manual:
> 
>    The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the
>    /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of devices, was started by Richard
>    Moreland and is now in the hands of Sean Escriva. Android users
>    should check out
>    [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg
>    Android]] by Matt Jones.
> 
>    For HTML you need to install Hrvoje Niksic's =htmlize.el= from
>    [[https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize][Hrvoje Niksic's
>    repository]].
> 
>    Fontified code chunks in LaTeX can be achieved using either the
>    listings package or the [[https://github.com/gpoore/minted][minted]]
>    package. Refer to ~org-export-latex-listings~ for details.
> 
> If you do think that these URL need to be removed, what would you
> suggest to use instead?

I spoke only about the URL for htmlize.  Is the URL really needed?
How long will it take for people to find the package given only its
name?

Also, I understand it is available from MELPA, in which case
mentioning MELPA could be an alternative, if you think you must
specify a URL.

> > And I'd like to backport these changes to the emacs-26 branch of the
> > Emacs repository.  Would it be possible to apply the changes from
> > Org's master branch, or do we need a slightly different set of
> > changes?
> 
> I do not know about the exact process of merging Org within Emacs. You
> can probably cherry-pick the changes from Org's master branch.

I understand that, I was asking whether the changes need something
that doesn't exist in the version of Org on the emacs-26 branch.  I
understand that the answer is NO.

Thanks.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

     > The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the
     > /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of devices, was started by Richard
     > Moreland and is now in the hands of Sean Escriva.

That should be deleted -- an iOS app is nonfree software.

							 Android users
     > should check out
     > [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg
     > Android]] by Matt Jones.

I addressed this at length in another message today.

     > For HTML you need to install Hrvoje Niksic's =htmlize.el= from
     > [[https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize][Hrvoje Niksic's
     > repository]].

That's been changed; I addressed this issue in another message today.

     > Fontified code chunks in LaTeX can be achieved using either the
     > listings package or the [[https://github.com/gpoore/minted][minted]]
     > package. Refer to ~org-export-latex-listings~ for details.

Please verify that that is free software.  (I expect that it is.)
If it is free, then since it is not something that naturally ought
to be part of Emacs, suggesting people get it elsewhere is ok.

It would be good to refer to a mirror, not github.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

     > The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the
     > /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of devices, was started by Richard
     > Moreland and is now in the hands of Sean Escriva.

That should be deleted -- an iOS app is nonfree software.

							 Android users
     > should check out
     > [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg
     > Android]] by Matt Jones.

I addressed this at length in another message today.

     > For HTML you need to install Hrvoje Niksic's =htmlize.el= from
     > [[https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize][Hrvoje Niksic's
     > repository]].

That's been changed; I addressed this issue in another message today.

     > Fontified code chunks in LaTeX can be achieved using either the
     > listings package or the [[https://github.com/gpoore/minted][minted]]
     > package. Refer to ~org-export-latex-listings~ for details.

Please verify that that is free software.  (I expect that it is.)
If it is free, then since it is not something that naturally ought
to be part of Emacs, suggesting people get it elsewhere is ok.

It would be good to refer to a mirror, not github.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  rjhorniii@gmail.com,  n@flqt.fr,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com,  rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 23:07:19 +0200
> 
> I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
> to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
> not fontified.

Thanks!

There's also a similar reference to htmlize in the Org manual, which
should, too, should probably be removed.

And I'd like to backport these changes to the emacs-26 branch of the
Emacs repository.  Would it be possible to apply the changes from
Org's master branch, or do we need a slightly different set of
changes?

Re: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Adam Porter]

Although I've read all of the messages in it, this thread has not been
especially easy to follow.

Whatever changes are made, we should ensure that there are no
regressions as a result.  This should mean that:

1.  Existing Org users who install the new version of Org and export
documents to HTML should not see any changes in the output.

2.  New Org users whose first version is the new one should be able to
easily get the same HTML output they see existing users getting.  If the
changes in documentation and in-Emacs messages obscure the necessary
steps, it should be considered a significant regression in usability.

I can already imagine the messages asking, "How do I get the
nice-looking, syntax-highlighted code blocks I see all the other Org
users getting?"  There are already many questions about Org that are
asked over and over again in various places.  Let's not add a new one to
that list, about something that used to work fine.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > While there are numerous references
  > to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
  > live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
  > running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
  > something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
  > wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

You've put your finger on the crucial point.
Just talking about something that is in GitHub is ok.
The problem is suggest users get it and run it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > While there are numerous references
  > to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
  > live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
  > running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
  > something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
  > wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

You've put your finger on the crucial point.
Just talking about something that is in GitHub is ok.
The problem is suggest users get it and run it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: eliz@gnu.org, n@flqt.fr, rjhorniii@gmail.com,
> 	32722@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr,
> 	kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 23:39:49 -0400
> 
>   > While there are numerous references
>   > to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
>   > live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
>   > running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
>   > something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
>   > wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.
> 
> You've put your finger on the crucial point.
> Just talking about something that is in GitHub is ok.
> The problem is suggest users get it and run it.

If that is the crucial point, then the recent change to Org already
took care of that, and there should be no rush to convert Org to using
htmlfontify, as this issue is now on the same level as the other
references to GitHub.  Right?

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: eliz@gnu.org, n@flqt.fr, rjhorniii@gmail.com,
> 	32722@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr,
> 	kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 23:39:49 -0400
> 
>   > While there are numerous references
>   > to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
>   > live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
>   > running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
>   > something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
>   > wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.
> 
> You've put your finger on the crucial point.
> Just talking about something that is in GitHub is ok.
> The problem is suggest users get it and run it.

If that is the crucial point, then the recent change to Org already
took care of that, and there should be no rush to convert Org to using
htmlfontify, as this issue is now on the same level as the other
references to GitHub.  Right?

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > If that is the crucial point, then the recent change to Org already
  > took care of that,

That depends on what the changed text actually says.  I have not seen it;
would you please send it to me?

		       and there should be no rush to convert Org to using
  > htmlfontify, as this issue is now on the same level as the other
  > references to GitHub.  Right?

I wouldn't assume all those mentions are similar cases.
This is a matter of details, and I have not seen them,
so I don't know whether they are real problems or not.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > If that is the crucial point, then the recent change to Org already
  > took care of that,

That depends on what the changed text actually says.  I have not seen it;
would you please send it to me?

		       and there should be no rush to convert Org to using
  > htmlfontify, as this issue is now on the same level as the other
  > references to GitHub.  Right?

I wouldn't assume all those mentions are similar cases.
This is a matter of details, and I have not seen them,
so I don't know whether they are real problems or not.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, rjhorniii@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr, kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:50:43 -0400
> 
>   > If that is the crucial point, then the recent change to Org already
>   > took care of that,
> 
> That depends on what the changed text actually says.  I have not seen it;
> would you please send it to me?

There's no changed text: the original message telling from where to
install htmlize was deleted.  There's now only the error message
(which was there before) saying that htmlize is required.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, rjhorniii@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr, kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:50:43 -0400
> 
>   > If that is the crucial point, then the recent change to Org already
>   > took care of that,
> 
> That depends on what the changed text actually says.  I have not seen it;
> would you please send it to me?

There's no changed text: the original message telling from where to
install htmlize was deleted.  There's now only the error message
(which was there before) saying that htmlize is required.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > There's no changed text: the original message telling from where to
  > install htmlize was deleted.  There's now only the error message
  > (which was there before) saying that htmlize is required.

The real problem is that Emacs depends on something that ought to be
part of Emacs but isn't.  This change makes the problem less blatant,
but doesn't really fix it.

The change that has been made is good enough temporarily.  
if people are going to implement replacement code soon,
we can leave it this way in the mean time.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > There's no changed text: the original message telling from where to
  > install htmlize was deleted.  There's now only the error message
  > (which was there before) saying that htmlize is required.

The real problem is that Emacs depends on something that ought to be
part of Emacs but isn't.  This change makes the problem less blatant,
but doesn't really fix it.

The change that has been made is good enough temporarily.  
if people are going to implement replacement code soon,
we can leave it this way in the mean time.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1725 bytes --]

Hello.

Le jeudi 20 septembre 2018 à 22:18 -0400, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> The real problem is that Emacs depends on something that ought to be
> part of Emacs but isn't.  This change makes the problem less blatant,
> but doesn't really fix it.
> 
> The change that has been made is good enough temporarily.  
> if people are going to implement replacement code soon,
> we can leave it this way in the mean time.
> 

The problem is not solved on emacs 26.2.

$ git clone https://code.orgmode.org/bzg/org-mode.git
$ cd org-mode
$ grep github ./lisp/*el
./lisp/ob-clojure.el:;; For Cider, see https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider
 * ./lisp/ob-groovy.el:;;   https://github.com/russel/Emacs-Groovy-Mode
./lisp/ob-io.el:;;  https://github.com/stevedekorte/io/blob/master/extras/SyntaxHighlighters/Emacs/io-mode.el
./lisp/ob-js.el:;;   or mozrepl http://wiki.github.com/bard/mozrepl/
./lisp/ob-js.el:;;   http://wiki.github.com/bard/mozrepl/emacs-integration for
./lisp/ob-lisp.el:;; - https://github.com/capitaomorte/sly
./lisp/ob-lua.el:;; https://github.com/immerrr/lua-mode
./lisp/ob-processing.el:;; - processing2-emacs mode :: https://github.com/ptrv/processing2-emacs
./lisp/ob-ruby.el:;;   http://github.com/eschulte/rinari/raw/master/util/ruby-mode.el
./lisp/ob-ruby.el:;;   http://github.com/eschulte/rinari/raw/master/util/inf-ruby.el
./lisp/ob-sass.el:;; - sass-mode :: http://github.com/nex3/haml/blob/master/extra/sass-mode.el
./lisp/ob-shen.el:;;   https://github.com/eschulte/shen-mode

Thank you for all the work done.

-- 
Nicolas Floquet
06.32.93.03.51
http://syntax61.fr/
https://deontobox.org/
http://www.pharmanerd.flqt.fr/
https://forum.normandie-libre.fr/

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bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

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Le jeudi 16 mai 2019 à 17:16 +0200, Nicolas Floquet a écrit :
> The problem is not solved on emacs 26.2.

I have just humbly made a little commit wich is not the best solution,
take in consideration that I am not a programmer… I can not currently
do better ! :-)
https://code.orgmode.org/nflqt/org-mode/commit/11206b40781b9f04912cb1c538a6b936c8dadc21


> Thank you for all the work done.

Again.

-- 
Nicolas Floquet
06.32.93.03.51
http://syntax61.fr/
https://deontobox.org/
http://www.pharmanerd.flqt.fr/
https://forum.normandie-libre.fr/

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bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

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Le jeudi 16 mai 2019 à 17:16 +0200, Nicolas Floquet a écrit :
> The problem is not solved on emacs 26.2.

I have just humbly made a little commit wich is not the best solution,
take in consideration that I am not a programmer… I can not currently
do better ! :-)
https://code.orgmode.org/nflqt/org-mode/commit/11206b40781b9f04912cb1c538a6b936c8dadc21


> Thank you for all the work done.

Again.

-- 
Nicolas Floquet
06.32.93.03.51
http://syntax61.fr/
https://deontobox.org/
http://www.pharmanerd.flqt.fr/
https://forum.normandie-libre.fr/

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bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Amin Bandali]

Nicolas Floquet <n@flqt.fr> writes:

> Le jeudi 16 mai 2019 à 17:16 +0200, Nicolas Floquet a écrit :
>> The problem is not solved on emacs 26.2.
>
> I have just humbly made a little commit wich is not the best solution,
> take in consideration that I am not a programmer… I can not currently
> do better ! :-)
> https://code.orgmode.org/nflqt/org-mode/commit/11206b40781b9f04912cb1c538a6b936c8dadc21
>

I set that mirror up last year around when the bug report was submitted.
I see in 50aca8422b [0] on the org-mode repo @ngz removed references to
the GitHub repo from lisp/ox-html.el, as I believe there was some talk
to use Emacs’s htmlfontify instead of htmlize.  But I’m not aware of any
progress on that front.  Further, references to the GitHub repo still
remain in lisp/ox-org.el, lisp/org-agenda.el, and lisp/org-manual.org;
the first two of which were addressed by @nflqt’s commit above.

[0]: https://code.orgmode.org/bzg/org-mode/commit/50aca8422b0afd4a2173ac93225fa9b39a94d8dd

@ngz, until such time as htmlfontify fully replaces org-mode’s uses of
htmlize, what do you think about (partially) reverting your 50aca8422b
and instead of linking to the htmlize repo on GitHub or no link at all,
link to https://code.orgmode.org/mirrors/emacs-htmlize instead?

>
>
>> Thank you for all the work done.
>
> Again.

Best,
amin

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Amin Bandali]

Nicolas Floquet <n@flqt.fr> writes:

> Le jeudi 16 mai 2019 à 17:16 +0200, Nicolas Floquet a écrit :
>> The problem is not solved on emacs 26.2.
>
> I have just humbly made a little commit wich is not the best solution,
> take in consideration that I am not a programmer… I can not currently
> do better ! :-)
> https://code.orgmode.org/nflqt/org-mode/commit/11206b40781b9f04912cb1c538a6b936c8dadc21
>

I set that mirror up last year around when the bug report was submitted.
I see in 50aca8422b [0] on the org-mode repo @ngz removed references to
the GitHub repo from lisp/ox-html.el, as I believe there was some talk
to use Emacs’s htmlfontify instead of htmlize.  But I’m not aware of any
progress on that front.  Further, references to the GitHub repo still
remain in lisp/ox-org.el, lisp/org-agenda.el, and lisp/org-manual.org;
the first two of which were addressed by @nflqt’s commit above.

[0]: https://code.orgmode.org/bzg/org-mode/commit/50aca8422b0afd4a2173ac93225fa9b39a94d8dd

@ngz, until such time as htmlfontify fully replaces org-mode’s uses of
htmlize, what do you think about (partially) reverting your 50aca8422b
and instead of linking to the htmlize repo on GitHub or no link at all,
link to https://code.orgmode.org/mirrors/emacs-htmlize instead?

>
>
>> Thank you for all the work done.
>
> Again.

Best,
amin

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

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Hello.

Le jeudi 20 septembre 2018 à 22:18 -0400, Richard Stallman a écrit :
> The real problem is that Emacs depends on something that ought to be
> part of Emacs but isn't.  This change makes the problem less blatant,
> but doesn't really fix it.
> 
> The change that has been made is good enough temporarily.  
> if people are going to implement replacement code soon,
> we can leave it this way in the mean time.
> 

The problem is not solved on emacs 26.2.

$ git clone https://code.orgmode.org/bzg/org-mode.git
$ cd org-mode
$ grep github ./lisp/*el
./lisp/ob-clojure.el:;; For Cider, see https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider
 * ./lisp/ob-groovy.el:;;   https://github.com/russel/Emacs-Groovy-Mode
./lisp/ob-io.el:;;  https://github.com/stevedekorte/io/blob/master/extras/SyntaxHighlighters/Emacs/io-mode.el
./lisp/ob-js.el:;;   or mozrepl http://wiki.github.com/bard/mozrepl/
./lisp/ob-js.el:;;   http://wiki.github.com/bard/mozrepl/emacs-integration for
./lisp/ob-lisp.el:;; - https://github.com/capitaomorte/sly
./lisp/ob-lua.el:;; https://github.com/immerrr/lua-mode
./lisp/ob-processing.el:;; - processing2-emacs mode :: https://github.com/ptrv/processing2-emacs
./lisp/ob-ruby.el:;;   http://github.com/eschulte/rinari/raw/master/util/ruby-mode.el
./lisp/ob-ruby.el:;;   http://github.com/eschulte/rinari/raw/master/util/inf-ruby.el
./lisp/ob-sass.el:;; - sass-mode :: http://github.com/nex3/haml/blob/master/extra/sass-mode.el
./lisp/ob-shen.el:;;   https://github.com/eschulte/shen-mode

Thank you for all the work done.

-- 
Nicolas Floquet
06.32.93.03.51
http://syntax61.fr/
https://deontobox.org/
http://www.pharmanerd.flqt.fr/
https://forum.normandie-libre.fr/

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bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.

The concern is _about_ the reference to GitHub, but what _makes it a problem_
is that it is suggesting that people load specific code from there.
THAT is the issue here.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.

The concern is _about_ the reference to GitHub, but what _makes it a problem_
is that it is suggesting that people load specific code from there.
THAT is the issue here.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

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Hello,

Le mardi 18 septembre 2018 à 12:37 -0400, Robert Horn a écrit :
> Perhaps you could clarify the ethical issues.


I apologise: 
   1. first, to have sent you a badly edited bug report,
   2. second, the late sending of this clarification email.

This can be explained by

* My own difficulty to use the English language (on this point, I have
asked a translator friend of mine to translate my words. What you are
now reading is the fruit of her work)

* The difficulty to convey the issue arisen by GitHub (as a proprietary
tool) in the Free Software movement. (This issue has already been
brought up for instance in 2010 by B Mako Hill: 
https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html here translated in French 

https://framablog.org/2010/09/08/logiciels-libres-mais-outils-non-libres/
 ).

GitHub, as a platform based on proprietary software is a trap for the
developers who use it, particularly because they get into work habits
that tie them to one only service provider on the Internet, which is
contrary to the very principle of Internet, centre-less network. Yet
getting the Internet recentralised would have harmful consequences as
much ethically as technically.

Therefore, in explaining to its own users to seek some coding on
GitHub, or any other non-ethical platform, Emacs "prescribes" the
following message to its users: "GitHub? Meh... just some non-open
JavaScript" … Download on GitHub, code on GitHub! No, don't fuss over
it! Incidentally, programmers of free alternatives to GitHub are cool
but their work is not very important."
 

Last one more word about those worried by the loss of visibility of
their work by having to leave GitHub. May they know that several
software forge projects from now on are getting interested in the
ActivityPub protocol, which will allow the launching of connected
forges into a federation.

Thank you for having read on.


-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

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bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

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Hello,

Le mardi 18 septembre 2018 à 12:37 -0400, Robert Horn a écrit :
> Perhaps you could clarify the ethical issues.


I apologise: 
   1. first, to have sent you a badly edited bug report,
   2. second, the late sending of this clarification email.

This can be explained by

* My own difficulty to use the English language (on this point, I have
asked a translator friend of mine to translate my words. What you are
now reading is the fruit of her work)

* The difficulty to convey the issue arisen by GitHub (as a proprietary
tool) in the Free Software movement. (This issue has already been
brought up for instance in 2010 by B Mako Hill: 
https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html here translated in French 

https://framablog.org/2010/09/08/logiciels-libres-mais-outils-non-libres/
 ).

GitHub, as a platform based on proprietary software is a trap for the
developers who use it, particularly because they get into work habits
that tie them to one only service provider on the Internet, which is
contrary to the very principle of Internet, centre-less network. Yet
getting the Internet recentralised would have harmful consequences as
much ethically as technically.

Therefore, in explaining to its own users to seek some coding on
GitHub, or any other non-ethical platform, Emacs "prescribes" the
following message to its users: "GitHub? Meh... just some non-open
JavaScript" … Download on GitHub, code on GitHub! No, don't fuss over
it! Incidentally, programmers of free alternatives to GitHub are cool
but their work is not very important."
 

Last one more word about those worried by the loss of visibility of
their work by having to leave GitHub. May they know that several
software forge projects from now on are getting interested in the
ActivityPub protocol, which will allow the launching of connected
forges into a federation.

Thank you for having read on.


-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
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bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Horn]

Nicolas Floquet writes:

> Actually, it's an ethical issue. That are not always easily solved with
> technical solutions, I guess…
>

Perhaps you could clarify the ethical issues.  The initial RMS comment
on this issue in this thread is:

/* from RMS email

Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
(counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.

If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
Is there some obstacle to that?

*/

I can hypothesize various ethical, marketing, operational, and user
experience reasons for not advising people to load ...

Could you explain the ethical issue(s) that are of specific concern.

Further from RMS was the suggested technical fix

/* from RMS email later in thread
To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
*/

This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.  I
could accept a change such as replacing that reference with text saying
"use ???? to find html..."  I'm not sure what to suggest since Google,
duck-duck-go, and other search engines are all commercial non-free
operations.

Rehosting onto a free platform, perhaps gnu.org, might be an option.  A
simple mirror onto a free platform might suffice.  Linux, python, and
other major open source efforts deal with platform issues by providing
their own primary distribution platform.

I can seem some ethical concerns with using a proprietary platform.  Git
was created due to problems with a dependency on a proprietary platform,
although in that case it was more related to a divergence in business
strategic directions than ethical issues.

--
Robert Horn
rjhorniii@gmail.com

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Note that the Org manual still talks about iOS and Android, which are
  > > not free either.

That may or may not be a problem, depending on what it says.  Can you
show me what it actually says about those nonfree systems?
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Note that the Org manual still talks about iOS and Android, which are
  > > not free either.

That may or may not be a problem, depending on what it says.  Can you
show me what it actually says about those nonfree systems?
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> That may or may not be a problem, depending on what it says.  Can you
> show me what it actually says about those nonfree systems?

All references are related to the appendix about MobileOrg, an
application for viewing and capturing entries from a mobile device.
Relevant parts include references to Apple and Google products in
addition to Dropbox:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
MobileOrg is a companion mobile app that runs on iOS and Android
devices.  MobileOrg enables offline-views and capture support for an
Org mode system that is rooted on a "real" computer.  MobileOrg can
record changes to existing entries.

The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of
devices, was started by Richard Moreland and is now in the hands of
Sean Escriva.  Android users should check out [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg Android]] by
Matt Jones.  Though the two implementations are not identical, they
offer similar features.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
MobileOrg needs access to a file directory on a server to interact
with Emacs.  With a public server, consider encrypting the files.
MobileOrg version 1.5 supports encryption for the iPhone.  Org also
requires =openssl= installed on the local computer.  To turn on
encryption, set the same password in MobileOrg and in Emacs.  Set the
password in the variable ~org-mobile-use-encryption~[fn:145].  Note
that even after MobileOrg encrypts the file contents, the file name
remains visible on the file systems of the local computer, the server,
and the mobile device.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
For a server to host files, consider options like [[http://dropbox.com][Dropbox.com]]
account[fn:146].  On first connection, MobileOrg creates a directory
=MobileOrg= on Dropbox.  Pass its location to Emacs through an
initialisation file variable as follows:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(setq org-mobile-directory "~/Dropbox/MobileOrg")
#+end_src
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Here is the footnote from the last excerpt:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
[fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.  Additional
help is at this [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ entry]].
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I think that is about it.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> That may or may not be a problem, depending on what it says.  Can you
> show me what it actually says about those nonfree systems?

All references are related to the appendix about MobileOrg, an
application for viewing and capturing entries from a mobile device.
Relevant parts include references to Apple and Google products in
addition to Dropbox:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
MobileOrg is a companion mobile app that runs on iOS and Android
devices.  MobileOrg enables offline-views and capture support for an
Org mode system that is rooted on a "real" computer.  MobileOrg can
record changes to existing entries.

The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of
devices, was started by Richard Moreland and is now in the hands of
Sean Escriva.  Android users should check out [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg Android]] by
Matt Jones.  Though the two implementations are not identical, they
offer similar features.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
MobileOrg needs access to a file directory on a server to interact
with Emacs.  With a public server, consider encrypting the files.
MobileOrg version 1.5 supports encryption for the iPhone.  Org also
requires =openssl= installed on the local computer.  To turn on
encryption, set the same password in MobileOrg and in Emacs.  Set the
password in the variable ~org-mobile-use-encryption~[fn:145].  Note
that even after MobileOrg encrypts the file contents, the file name
remains visible on the file systems of the local computer, the server,
and the mobile device.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
For a server to host files, consider options like [[http://dropbox.com][Dropbox.com]]
account[fn:146].  On first connection, MobileOrg creates a directory
=MobileOrg= on Dropbox.  Pass its location to Emacs through an
initialisation file variable as follows:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(setq org-mobile-directory "~/Dropbox/MobileOrg")
#+end_src
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Here is the footnote from the last excerpt:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
[fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.  Additional
help is at this [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ entry]].
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I think that is about it.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The crucial question here is whether Mobile.org is free software.  If
it is not, then GNU packages including their documentation should not
mention it at all.  See the chapter References in the GNU Coding
Standards.

What is the source license of Mobile.org?

Does Mobile.org for Android link with any nonfree libraries,
such as Google Play Library?  Is it listed in f-droid.org?

I don't think it is possible to have free apps for the iMonsters.
This is because iOS does not allow users to install modified versions
of apps, even if the app's source is released under a free license.


Another issue is the suggestion to use DropBox.
Normal use of Dropbox involves running nonfree JS software
(see https://gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html),
so we cannot recommend using Dropbox in the normal way.

If there is a way to use Dropbox (for those operations that are
necessary in this context) without running any nonfree client
software, it would be ok to recommend using Dropbox _in that way_.
(The operations necessary in this context must include creating an
account.)

However, the text you showed me does not include such a specific
recommendation, so we have to eliminate it.  We could reinsert the
discussion of Dropbox if and when someone writes text to recommend a
suitable specific way to use it.

  > [fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
  > documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.  Additional
  > help is at this [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ entry]].

Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?

Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
server without any nonfree client software?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> What is the source license of Mobile.org?

It is GPL2+.

> Does Mobile.org for Android link with any nonfree libraries,
> such as Google Play Library?

No idea.

> Is it listed in f-droid.org?

Yes, it is.

> If there is a way to use Dropbox (for those operations that are
> necessary in this context) without running any nonfree client
> software, it would be ok to recommend using Dropbox _in that way_.
> (The operations necessary in this context must include creating an
> account.)

I don't know.

> Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?

Yes, it is. MobileOrg just needs to get read/write access to some Org
files from anywhere. Dropbox is one way to do that. Any online storage
with WebDAV support fits the bill, too.

I think Dropbox is being mentioned because it may not be trivial for
users to do self-hosting or to find an ethical location for their files.
So, here comes the ready-to-use solution.

> Is the WebDAV server code free software?

At least some implementations are, e.g., Nextcloud, listed in the FSF
directory.

> Can you talk to such a server without any nonfree client software?

I do it with Gnome file manager. There is also an official client for
Nextcloud, which is free.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> What is the source license of Mobile.org?

It is GPL2+.

> Does Mobile.org for Android link with any nonfree libraries,
> such as Google Play Library?

No idea.

> Is it listed in f-droid.org?

Yes, it is.

> If there is a way to use Dropbox (for those operations that are
> necessary in this context) without running any nonfree client
> software, it would be ok to recommend using Dropbox _in that way_.
> (The operations necessary in this context must include creating an
> account.)

I don't know.

> Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?

Yes, it is. MobileOrg just needs to get read/write access to some Org
files from anywhere. Dropbox is one way to do that. Any online storage
with WebDAV support fits the bill, too.

I think Dropbox is being mentioned because it may not be trivial for
users to do self-hosting or to find an ethical location for their files.
So, here comes the ready-to-use solution.

> Is the WebDAV server code free software?

At least some implementations are, e.g., Nextcloud, listed in the FSF
directory.

> Can you talk to such a server without any nonfree client software?

I do it with Gnome file manager. There is also an official client for
Nextcloud, which is free.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi,

>> Is the WebDAV server code free software?
>
> At least some implementations are, e.g., Nextcloud, listed in the FSF
> directory.
>
>> Can you talk to such a server without any nonfree client software?
>
> I do it with Gnome file manager. There is also an official client for
> Nextcloud, which is free.

For the records, Emacs 27.0.50 / Tramp 2.4.1-pre got a nextcloud client
for GNU/Linux systems. Like the Gnome File Manager it uses the GVFS
library and tools.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi,

>> Is the WebDAV server code free software?
>
> At least some implementations are, e.g., Nextcloud, listed in the FSF
> directory.
>
>> Can you talk to such a server without any nonfree client software?
>
> I do it with Gnome file manager. There is also an official client for
> Nextcloud, which is free.

For the records, Emacs 27.0.50 / Tramp 2.4.1-pre got a nextcloud client
for GNU/Linux systems. Like the Gnome File Manager it uses the GVFS
library and tools.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Bingo UV]

Hi RMS, Nicolas
   The concrete software MobileOrg on Android is somewhat of an orphan.
   It may not revive as itself. But there is also a protocol mobileorg,
   which the manual alludes to, though does not document directly. That
   protocol is very much an enabler of software freedom, and it is
   important for the next MobileOrg to be written. I hope it survives
   these questions.

The protocol can be used to sync 2 sets of org-mode files between 2
emacs instances - without needing the iOS or Android versions of
MobileOrg. When fancypants sync systems like dropbox, git, syncthing,
rsync etc. are not available, the mobileorg protocol can be used to
transfer changes from one place to another.

As for the questions :

On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:50:26 -0400
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> What is the source license of Mobile.org?

GPLv3
(https://github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/blob/master/LICENSE.txt)

> 
Is it listed in f-droid.org?

It used to be, it has been kicked out of f-droid due to violating
policies : including dubious jars. Dropbox API that it was using was
surely non-free.


>   > [fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
>   > documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.
>   > Additional help is at this
>   > [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ
>   > entry]].  
> 
> Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?
> 
> Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
> server without any nonfree client software?

There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
worg page:
1. SSH
2. Local filesystem


Also, since one can write one's own WebDAV server using specs, it
doesn't matter if some particular WebDAV servers are free or not.

thanks

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I asked 

  > > Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
  > > server without any nonfree client software?

Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>'s information
shows that using WebDAV is no problem.

  > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
  > worg page:
  > 1. SSH
  > 2. Local filesystem

It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those
methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program
that could be in f-droid.  It would be useful for someone to do that
and publish it under a different name.

Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to
use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg.

Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything
that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg.
We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new
version when that new version is available.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Leslie Watter]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2276 bytes --]

Hello all,

Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
will have
to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
development of MobileOrg
in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

Updating the software could help more than just forking it and publishing
it with another name.  There's
some options (Orgzly, Syncthing) that can be used but none of them are as
usefull as MobileOrg.

So, if anyone could contact Matthew Jones (https://github.com/matburt) and
offer some help
I think that could be a better approach than just forking it. Unfortunately
I cannot help at this point.

Cheers,

LEslie

[0] - https://github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/issues/501

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:17 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> I asked
>
>   > > Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
>   > > server without any nonfree client software?
>
> Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>'s information
> shows that using WebDAV is no problem.
>
>   > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
>   > worg page:
>   > 1. SSH
>   > 2. Local filesystem
>
> It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those
> methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program
> that could be in f-droid.  It would be useful for someone to do that
> and publish it under a different name.
>
> Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to
> use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg.
>
> Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything
> that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg.
> We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new
> version when that new version is available.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Leslie H. Watter

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3497 bytes --]

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
  > MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
  > will have
  > to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
  > development of MobileOrg
  > in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
updated.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
  > MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
  > will have
  > to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
  > development of MobileOrg
  > in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
updated.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> updated.

For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox". Here it is in
its full glory (please ignore the broken links, which refer to other
parts in the Org manual):

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
                               ORG MOBILE
                              Release 9.2

                        The Org Mode Developers
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━


Table of Contents
─────────────────

1. Setting up the staging area
2. Pushing to the mobile application
3. Pulling from the mobile application


Org Mobile is a protocol for synchronizing Org files between Emacs and
other applications, e.g., on mobile devices. It enables offline-views
and capture support for an Org mode system that is rooted on a “real”
computer. The external application can also record changes to existing
entries.

This appendix describes Org’s support for agenda view formats compatible
with Org Mobile. It also describes synchronizing changes, such as to
notes, between the mobile application and the computer.

To change tags and TODO states in the mobile application, first
customize the variables `org-todo-keywords' and `org-tag-alist'. These
should cover all the important tags and TODO keywords, even if Org files
use only some of them. Though the mobile application is expected to
support in-buffer settings, it is required to understand TODO states
/sets/ (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting up keywords for individual files])
and /mutually exclusive/ tags (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting Tags]) only
for those set in these variables.


1 Setting up the staging area
═════════════════════════════

  The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
  to interact with Emacs. Pass its location through the
  `org-mobile-directory' variable. If you can mount that directory
  locally just set the variable to point to that directory:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "~/orgmobile/")
  └────

  Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
  `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
  through, for example, SSH and SCP:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
  └────

  With a public server, consider encrypting the files. Org also requires
  OpenSSL installed on the local computer. To turn on encryption, set
  the same password in the mobile application and in Emacs. Set the
  password in the variable `org-mobile-use-encryption'[2]. Note that
  even after the mobile application encrypts the file contents, the file
  name remains visible on the file systems of the local computer, the
  server, and the mobile device.


[TRAMP User Manual] <info:tramp>


2 Pushing to the mobile application
═══════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-push' copies files listed in
  `org-mobile-files' into the staging area. Files include agenda files
  (as listed in `org-agenda-files'). Customize `org-mobile-files' to add
  other files. File names are staged with paths relative to
  `org-directory', so all files should be inside this directory[3].

  Push creates a special Org file `agendas.org' with custom agenda views
  defined by the user[4].

  Finally, Org writes the file `index.org', containing links to other
  files. The mobile application reads this file first from the server to
  determine what other files to download for agendas. For faster
  downloads, it is expected to only read files whose checksums[5] have
  changed.


3 Pulling from the mobile application
═════════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-pull' synchronizes changes with the server.
  More specifically, it first pulls the Org files for viewing. It then
  appends captured entries and pointers to flagged or changed entries to
  the file `mobileorg.org' on the server. Org ultimately integrates its
  data in an inbox file format, through the following steps:

  1. Org moves all entries found in `mobileorg.org'[6] and appends them
     to the file pointed to by the variable `org-mobile-inbox-for-pull'.
     It should reside neither in the staging area nor on the server. Each
     captured entry and each editing event is a top-level entry in the
     inbox file.

  2. After moving the entries, Org processes changes to the shared files.
     Some of them are applied directly and without user interaction.
     Examples include changes to tags, TODO state, headline and body
     text. Entries requiring further action are tagged as `FLAGGED'. Org
     marks entries with problems with an error message in the inbox. They
     have to be resolved manually.

  3. Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user
     intervention to clean up. For notes stored in flagged entries, Org
     displays them in the echo area when point is on the corresponding
     agenda item.

     ?
           Pressing ? displays the entire flagged note in another
           window. Org also pushes it to the kill ring. To store flagged
           note as a normal note, use ? z C-y C-c C-c. Pressing ? twice
           does these things: first it removes the `FLAGGED' tag;
           second, it removes the flagged note from the property drawer;
           third, it signals that manual editing of the flagged entry is
           now finished.

  From the agenda dispatcher, ? returns to the view to finish processing
  flagged entries. Note that these entries may not be the most recent
  since the mobile application searches files that were last pulled. To
  get an updated agenda view with changes since the last pull, pull
  again.



Footnotes
─────────

[1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>). Additional help is at this
[FAQ entry]
(<https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav>).

[2] If Emacs is configured for safe storing of passwords, then
configure the variable `org-mobile-encryption-password'; please read
the docstring of that variable.

[3] Symbolic links in `org-directory' need to have the same name as
their targets.

[4] While creating the agendas, Org mode forces ID properties on all
referenced entries, so that these entries can be uniquely identified
if Org Mobile flags them for further action. To avoid setting
properties configure the variable
`org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items' to `nil'. Org mode then relies
on outline paths, assuming they are unique.

[5] Checksums are stored automatically in the file `checksums.dat'.

[6] The file will be empty after this operation.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I also used CTAN URL for the minted LaTeX package.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> updated.

For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox". Here it is in
its full glory (please ignore the broken links, which refer to other
parts in the Org manual):

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
                               ORG MOBILE
                              Release 9.2

                        The Org Mode Developers
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━


Table of Contents
─────────────────

1. Setting up the staging area
2. Pushing to the mobile application
3. Pulling from the mobile application


Org Mobile is a protocol for synchronizing Org files between Emacs and
other applications, e.g., on mobile devices. It enables offline-views
and capture support for an Org mode system that is rooted on a “real”
computer. The external application can also record changes to existing
entries.

This appendix describes Org’s support for agenda view formats compatible
with Org Mobile. It also describes synchronizing changes, such as to
notes, between the mobile application and the computer.

To change tags and TODO states in the mobile application, first
customize the variables `org-todo-keywords' and `org-tag-alist'. These
should cover all the important tags and TODO keywords, even if Org files
use only some of them. Though the mobile application is expected to
support in-buffer settings, it is required to understand TODO states
/sets/ (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting up keywords for individual files])
and /mutually exclusive/ tags (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting Tags]) only
for those set in these variables.


1 Setting up the staging area
═════════════════════════════

  The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
  to interact with Emacs. Pass its location through the
  `org-mobile-directory' variable. If you can mount that directory
  locally just set the variable to point to that directory:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "~/orgmobile/")
  └────

  Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
  `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
  through, for example, SSH and SCP:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
  └────

  With a public server, consider encrypting the files. Org also requires
  OpenSSL installed on the local computer. To turn on encryption, set
  the same password in the mobile application and in Emacs. Set the
  password in the variable `org-mobile-use-encryption'[2]. Note that
  even after the mobile application encrypts the file contents, the file
  name remains visible on the file systems of the local computer, the
  server, and the mobile device.


[TRAMP User Manual] <info:tramp>


2 Pushing to the mobile application
═══════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-push' copies files listed in
  `org-mobile-files' into the staging area. Files include agenda files
  (as listed in `org-agenda-files'). Customize `org-mobile-files' to add
  other files. File names are staged with paths relative to
  `org-directory', so all files should be inside this directory[3].

  Push creates a special Org file `agendas.org' with custom agenda views
  defined by the user[4].

  Finally, Org writes the file `index.org', containing links to other
  files. The mobile application reads this file first from the server to
  determine what other files to download for agendas. For faster
  downloads, it is expected to only read files whose checksums[5] have
  changed.


3 Pulling from the mobile application
═════════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-pull' synchronizes changes with the server.
  More specifically, it first pulls the Org files for viewing. It then
  appends captured entries and pointers to flagged or changed entries to
  the file `mobileorg.org' on the server. Org ultimately integrates its
  data in an inbox file format, through the following steps:

  1. Org moves all entries found in `mobileorg.org'[6] and appends them
     to the file pointed to by the variable `org-mobile-inbox-for-pull'.
     It should reside neither in the staging area nor on the server. Each
     captured entry and each editing event is a top-level entry in the
     inbox file.

  2. After moving the entries, Org processes changes to the shared files.
     Some of them are applied directly and without user interaction.
     Examples include changes to tags, TODO state, headline and body
     text. Entries requiring further action are tagged as `FLAGGED'. Org
     marks entries with problems with an error message in the inbox. They
     have to be resolved manually.

  3. Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user
     intervention to clean up. For notes stored in flagged entries, Org
     displays them in the echo area when point is on the corresponding
     agenda item.

     ?
           Pressing ? displays the entire flagged note in another
           window. Org also pushes it to the kill ring. To store flagged
           note as a normal note, use ? z C-y C-c C-c. Pressing ? twice
           does these things: first it removes the `FLAGGED' tag;
           second, it removes the flagged note from the property drawer;
           third, it signals that manual editing of the flagged entry is
           now finished.

  From the agenda dispatcher, ? returns to the view to finish processing
  flagged entries. Note that these entries may not be the most recent
  since the mobile application searches files that were last pulled. To
  get an updated agenda view with changes since the last pull, pull
  again.



Footnotes
─────────

[1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>). Additional help is at this
[FAQ entry]
(<https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav>).

[2] If Emacs is configured for safe storing of passwords, then
configure the variable `org-mobile-encryption-password'; please read
the docstring of that variable.

[3] Symbolic links in `org-directory' need to have the same name as
their targets.

[4] While creating the agendas, Org mode forces ID properties on all
referenced entries, so that these entries can be uniquely identified
if Org Mobile flags them for further action. To avoid setting
properties configure the variable
`org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items' to `nil'. Org mode then relies
on outline paths, assuming they are unique.

[5] Checksums are stored automatically in the file `checksums.dat'.

[6] The file will be empty after this operation.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I also used CTAN URL for the minted LaTeX package.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 16:53:04 +0200
> Cc: 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, n@flqt.fr, leslie@watter.net, right.ho@gmail.com,
> 	kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> 
> > This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> > If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> > go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> > updated.
> 
> For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
> This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox".

Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
please?

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> please?

I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 

You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
@node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
> 
> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> > please?
> 
> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
> 
> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
appropriate branch.

Thanks.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
> 
> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> > please?
> 
> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
> 
> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
appropriate branch.

Thanks.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kyle Meyer]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
>> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
>> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
>> 
>> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
>> > please?
>> 
>> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
>> 
>> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
>> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
>> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.
>
> I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
> appropriate branch.
>
> Thanks.

I've tried to combine these org-manual.org changes into a patch for
org.texi.  This patch should apply on the emacs-26 branch.

-- >8 --
Subject: [PATCH] org.texi: Rewrite Org Mobile section

* doc/misc/org.texi (Org Mobile): Rewrite from "MobileOrg" section.
Remove all references to non-free software.  Move into
"Miscellaneous".

This reflects Nicolas Goaziou's changes from Org's b929e5d77,
46b49ab57, and 3f826b9f7.
---
 doc/misc/org.texi | 293 ++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------
 1 file changed, 152 insertions(+), 141 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/misc/org.texi b/doc/misc/org.texi
index 60647e65e8..873ce4d2cd 100644
--- a/doc/misc/org.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/org.texi
@@ -325,7 +325,6 @@ Top
 * Working with source code::    Export, evaluate, and tangle code blocks
 * Miscellaneous::               All the rest which did not fit elsewhere
 * Hacking::                     How to hack your way around
-* MobileOrg::                   Viewing and capture on a mobile device
 * History and acknowledgments::  How Org came into being
 * GNU Free Documentation License::  The license for this documentation.
 * Main Index::                  An index of Org's concepts and features
@@ -760,12 +759,19 @@ Top
 * TTY keys::                    Using Org on a tty
 * Interaction::                 With other Emacs packages
 * org-crypt::                   Encrypting Org files
+* Org Mobile::                  Viewing and capture on a mobile device
 
 Interaction with other packages
 
 * Cooperation::                 Packages Org cooperates with
 * Conflicts::                   Packages that lead to conflicts
 
+Org Mobile
+
+* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
+* Pushing to the mobile application::  Uploading Org files and agendas
+* Pulling from the mobile application::  Integrating captured and flagged items
+
 Hacking
 
 * Hooks::                       How to reach into Org's internals
@@ -788,12 +794,6 @@ Top
 * Translator functions::        Copy and modify
 * Radio lists::                 Sending and receiving lists
 
-MobileOrg
-
-* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
-* Pushing to MobileOrg::        Uploading Org files and agendas
-* Pulling from MobileOrg::      Integrating captured and flagged items
-
 @end detailmenu
 @end menu
 
@@ -17253,6 +17253,7 @@ Miscellaneous
 * TTY keys::                    Using Org on a tty
 * Interaction::                 With other Emacs packages
 * org-crypt::                   Encrypting Org files
+* Org Mobile::                  Viewing and capture on a mobile device
 @end menu
 
 
@@ -18187,6 +18188,150 @@ org-crypt
 Excluding the crypt tag from inheritance prevents encrypting previously
 encrypted text.
 
+@node Org Mobile
+@section Org Mobile
+
+@cindex smartphone
+
+Org Mobile is a protocol for synchronizing Org files between Emacs and
+other applications, e.g., on mobile devices.  It enables offline-views
+and capture support for an Org mode system that is rooted on a ``real''
+computer.  The external application can also record changes to
+existing entries.
+
+This appendix describes Org's support for agenda view formats
+compatible with Org Mobile.  It also describes synchronizing changes,
+such as to notes, between the mobile application and the computer.
+
+To change tags and TODO states in the mobile application, first
+customize the variables @code{org-todo-keywords} and @code{org-tag-alist}.
+These should cover all the important tags and TODO keywords, even if
+Org files use only some of them.  Though the mobile application is
+expected to support in-buffer settings, it is required to understand
+TODO states @emph{sets} (see @ref{Per-file keywords}) and
+@emph{mutually exclusive} tags (see @ref{Setting tags}) only for those set in
+these variables.
+
+@menu
+* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
+* Pushing to the mobile application::  Uploading Org files and agendas
+* Pulling from the mobile application::  Integrating captured and flagged items
+@end menu
+
+@node Setting up the staging area
+@subsection Setting up the staging area
+
+@vindex org-mobile-directory
+The mobile application needs access to a file directory on
+a server@footnote{For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server,
+such as @uref{https://nextcloud.com, Nextcloud}.  Additional help is at this @uref{https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav, FAQ entry}.} to interact with Emacs.  Pass its location through
+the @code{org-mobile-directory} variable.  If you can mount that directory
+locally just set the variable to point to that directory:
+
+@lisp
+(setq org-mobile-directory "~/orgmobile/")
+@end lisp
+
+@noindent
+Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see @ref{Top,TRAMP User Manual,,tramp,}),
+@code{org-mobile-directory} may point to a remote directory accessible
+through, for example, SSH and SCP:
+
+@lisp
+(setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@@remote.host:org/webdav/")
+@end lisp
+
+@vindex org-mobile-encryption
+With a public server, consider encrypting the files.  Org also
+requires OpenSSL installed on the local computer.  To turn on
+encryption, set the same password in the mobile application and in
+Emacs.  Set the password in the variable
+@code{org-mobile-use-encryption}@footnote{If Emacs is configured for safe storing of passwords, then
+configure the variable @code{org-mobile-encryption-password}; please read
+the docstring of that variable.}.  Note that even after the mobile
+application encrypts the file contents, the file name remains visible
+on the file systems of the local computer, the server, and the mobile
+device.
+
+@node Pushing to the mobile application
+@subsection Pushing to the mobile application
+
+@findex org-mobile-push
+@vindex org-mobile-files
+The command @code{org-mobile-push} copies files listed in
+@code{org-mobile-files} into the staging area.  Files include agenda files
+(as listed in @code{org-agenda-files}).  Customize @code{org-mobile-files} to
+add other files.  File names are staged with paths relative to
+@code{org-directory}, so all files should be inside this directory@footnote{Symbolic links in @code{org-directory} need to have the same name
+as their targets.}.
+
+Push creates a special Org file @samp{agendas.org} with custom agenda views
+defined by the user@footnote{While creating the agendas, Org mode forces ID properties on
+all referenced entries, so that these entries can be uniquely
+identified if Org Mobile flags them for further action.  To avoid
+setting properties configure the variable
+@code{org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items} to @code{nil}.  Org mode then relies
+on outline paths, assuming they are unique.}.
+
+Finally, Org writes the file @samp{index.org}, containing links to other
+files.  The mobile application reads this file first from the server
+to determine what other files to download for agendas.  For faster
+downloads, it is expected to only read files whose checksums@footnote{Checksums are stored automatically in the file
+@samp{checksums.dat}.}
+have changed.
+
+@node Pulling from the mobile application
+@subsection Pulling from the mobile application
+
+@findex org-mobile-pull
+The command @code{org-mobile-pull} synchronizes changes with the server.
+More specifically, it first pulls the Org files for viewing.  It then
+appends captured entries and pointers to flagged or changed entries to
+the file @samp{mobileorg.org} on the server.  Org ultimately integrates its
+data in an inbox file format, through the following steps:
+
+@enumerate
+@item
+@vindex org-mobile-inbox-for-pull
+Org moves all entries found in @samp{mobileorg.org}@footnote{The file will be empty after this operation.} and appends
+them to the file pointed to by the variable
+@code{org-mobile-inbox-for-pull}.  It should reside neither in the
+staging area nor on the server.  Each captured entry and each
+editing event is a top-level entry in the inbox file.
+
+@item
+@cindex @samp{FLAGGED}, tag
+After moving the entries, Org processes changes to the shared
+files.  Some of them are applied directly and without user
+interaction.  Examples include changes to tags, TODO state,
+headline and body text.  Entries requiring further action are
+tagged as @samp{FLAGGED}.  Org marks entries with problems with an error
+message in the inbox.  They have to be resolved manually.
+
+@item
+Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user
+intervention to clean up.  For notes stored in flagged entries, Org
+displays them in the echo area when point is on the corresponding
+agenda item.
+
+@table @asis
+@item @kbd{?}
+Pressing @kbd{?} displays the entire flagged note in
+another window.  Org also pushes it to the kill ring.  To
+store flagged note as a normal note, use @kbd{? z C-y C-c C-c}.  Pressing @kbd{?} twice does these things: first
+it removes the @samp{FLAGGED} tag; second, it removes the flagged
+note from the property drawer; third, it signals that manual
+editing of the flagged entry is now finished.
+@end table
+@end enumerate
+
+@kindex ? @r{(Agenda dispatcher)}
+From the agenda dispatcher, @kbd{?} returns to the view to finish
+processing flagged entries.  Note that these entries may not be the
+most recent since the mobile application searches files that were last
+pulled.  To get an updated agenda view with changes since the last
+pull, pull again.
+
 @node Hacking
 @appendix Hacking
 @cindex hacking
@@ -19151,140 +19296,6 @@ Using the mapping API
 (length (org-map-entries t "/+WAITING" 'agenda))
 @end lisp
 
-@node MobileOrg
-@appendix MobileOrg
-@cindex iPhone
-@cindex MobileOrg
-
-MobileOrg is a companion mobile app that runs on iOS and Android devices.
-MobileOrg enables offline-views and capture support for an Org mode system
-that is rooted on a ``real'' computer.  MobileOrg can record changes to
-existing entries.
-
-The @uref{https://github.com/MobileOrg/, iOS implementation} for the
-@emph{iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad} series of devices, was started by Richard
-Moreland and is now in the hands Sean Escriva.  Android users should check
-out @uref{http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/, MobileOrg
-Android} by Matt Jones.  Though the two implementations are not identical,
-they offer similar features.
-
-This appendix describes Org's support for agenda view formats compatible with
-MobileOrg.  It also describes synchronizing changes, such as to notes,
-between MobileOrg and the computer.
-
-To change tags and TODO states in MobileOrg, first customize the variables
-@code{org-todo-keywords} and @code{org-tag-alist}.  These should cover all
-the important tags and TODO keywords, even if Org files use only some of
-them.  Though MobileOrg has in-buffer settings, it understands TODO states
-@emph{sets} (@pxref{Per-file keywords}) and @emph{mutually exclusive} tags
-(@pxref{Setting tags}) only for those set in these variables.
-
-@menu
-* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
-* Pushing to MobileOrg::        Uploading Org files and agendas
-* Pulling from MobileOrg::      Integrating captured and flagged items
-@end menu
-
-@node Setting up the staging area
-@section Setting up the staging area
-
-MobileOrg needs access to a file directory on a server to interact with
-Emacs.  With a public server, consider encrypting the files.  MobileOrg
-version 1.5 supports encryption for the iPhone.  Org also requires
-@file{openssl} installed on the local computer.  To turn on encryption, set
-the same password in MobileOrg and in Emacs.  Set the password in the
-variable @code{org-mobile-use-encryption}@footnote{If Emacs is configured for
-safe storing of passwords, then configure the variable,
-@code{org-mobile-encryption-password}; please read the docstring of that
-variable.}.  Note that even after MobileOrg encrypts the file contents, the
-file names will remain visible on the file systems of the local computer, the
-server, and the mobile device.
-
-For a server to host files, consider options like
-@uref{http://dropbox.com,Dropbox.com} account@footnote{An alternative is to
-use webdav server.  MobileOrg documentation has details of webdav server
-configuration.  Additional help is at
-@uref{https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav, FAQ entry}.}.
-On first connection, MobileOrg creates a directory @file{MobileOrg/} on
-Dropbox.  Pass its location to Emacs through an init file variable as
-follows:
-
-@lisp
-(setq org-mobile-directory "~/Dropbox/MobileOrg")
-@end lisp
-
-Org copies files to the above directory for MobileOrg.  Org also uses the
-same directory for sharing notes between Org and MobileOrg.
-
-@node Pushing to MobileOrg
-@section Pushing to MobileOrg
-
-Org pushes files listed in @code{org-mobile-files} to
-@code{org-mobile-directory}.  Files include agenda files (as listed in
-@code{org-agenda-files}).  Customize @code{org-mobile-files} to add other
-files.  File names will be staged with paths relative to
-@code{org-directory}, so all files should be inside this
-directory@footnote{Symbolic links in @code{org-directory} should have the
-same name as their targets.}.
-
-Push creates a special Org file @file{agendas.org} with custom agenda views
-defined by the user@footnote{While creating the agendas, Org mode will force
-ID properties on all referenced entries, so that these entries can be
-uniquely identified if MobileOrg flags them for further action.  To avoid
-setting properties configure the variable
-@code{org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items} to @code{nil}.  Org mode will then
-rely on outline paths, assuming they are unique.}.
-
-Org writes the file @file{index.org}, containing links to other files.
-MobileOrg reads this file first from the server to determine what other files
-to download for agendas.  For faster downloads, MobileOrg will read only
-those files whose checksums@footnote{Checksums are stored automatically in
-the file @file{checksums.dat}.} have changed.
-
-@node Pulling from MobileOrg
-@section Pulling from MobileOrg
-
-When MobileOrg synchronizes with the server, it pulls the Org files for
-viewing.  It then appends to the file @file{mobileorg.org} on the server the
-captured entries, pointers to flagged and changed entries.  Org integrates
-its data in an inbox file format.
-
-@enumerate
-@item
-Org moves all entries found in
-@file{mobileorg.org}@footnote{@file{mobileorg.org} will be empty after this
-operation.} and appends them to the file pointed to by the variable
-@code{org-mobile-inbox-for-pull}.  Each captured entry and each editing event
-is a top-level entry in the inbox file.
-@item
-After moving the entries, Org attempts changes to MobileOrg.  Some changes
-are applied directly and without user interaction.  Examples include changes
-to tags, TODO state, headline and body text.  Entries for further action are
-tagged as @code{:FLAGGED:}.  Org marks entries with problems with an error
-message in the inbox.  They have to be resolved manually.
-@item
-Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user intervention to
-clean up.  For notes stored in flagged entries, MobileOrg displays them in
-the echo area when the cursor is on the corresponding agenda item.
-
-@table @kbd
-@kindex ?
-@item ?
-Pressing @kbd{?} displays the entire flagged note in another window.  Org
-also pushes it to the kill ring.  To store flagged note as a normal note, use
-@kbd{?  z C-y C-c C-c}.  Pressing @kbd{?} twice does these things: first it
-removes the @code{:FLAGGED:} tag; second, it removes the flagged note from
-the property drawer; third, it signals that manual editing of the flagged
-entry is now finished.
-@end table
-@end enumerate
-
-@kindex C-c a ?
-@kbd{C-c a ?} returns to the agenda view to finish processing flagged
-entries.  Note that these entries may not be the most recent since MobileOrg
-searches files that were last pulled.  To get an updated agenda view with
-changes since the last pull, pull again.
-
 @node History and acknowledgments
 @appendix History and acknowledgments
 @cindex acknowledgments
-- 
2.19.0

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com>
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, rms@gnu.org, right.ho@gmail.com, rasmus@gmx.us, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 19:35:25 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> >> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
> >> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
> >> 
> >> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> >> > please?
> >> 
> >> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
> >> 
> >> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
> >> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
> >> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.
> >
> > I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
> > appropriate branch.
> >
> > Thanks.
> 
> I've tried to combine these org-manual.org changes into a patch for
> org.texi.  This patch should apply on the emacs-26 branch.

Thanks, pushed.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Bastien]

AFAICT the issues raised in this thread have been solved, so I am
closing this bug report now.

Org-mode does not encourage users to use GitHub for hosting their
source code, nor does it encourage them to use non-free javascript
by browsing GitHub's page.

Some files in Org still contain references to links starting with
http://github.com but users can use M-x eww on these links and still
get the correct instructions on how to clone the Git repository.

The htmlize/htmlfontify discussion can continue in this report:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=7506

If anyone think there are things we can still fix in this area,
please reopen this bug report with suggestions on what to fix and
how to fix it.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Bastien]

AFAICT the issues raised in this thread have been solved, so I am
closing this bug report now.

Org-mode does not encourage users to use GitHub for hosting their
source code, nor does it encourage them to use non-free javascript
by browsing GitHub's page.

Some files in Org still contain references to links starting with
http://github.com but users can use M-x eww on these links and still
get the correct instructions on how to clone the Git repository.

The htmlize/htmlfontify discussion can continue in this report:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=7506

If anyone think there are things we can still fix in this area,
please reopen this bug report with suggestions on what to fix and
how to fix it.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com>
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, rms@gnu.org, right.ho@gmail.com, rasmus@gmx.us, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 19:35:25 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> >> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
> >> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
> >> 
> >> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> >> > please?
> >> 
> >> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
> >> 
> >> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
> >> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
> >> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.
> >
> > I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
> > appropriate branch.
> >
> > Thanks.
> 
> I've tried to combine these org-manual.org changes into a patch for
> org.texi.  This patch should apply on the emacs-26 branch.

Thanks, pushed.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kyle Meyer]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
>> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
>> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
>> 
>> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
>> > please?
>> 
>> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
>> 
>> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
>> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
>> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.
>
> I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
> appropriate branch.
>
> Thanks.

I've tried to combine these org-manual.org changes into a patch for
org.texi.  This patch should apply on the emacs-26 branch.

-- >8 --
Subject: [PATCH] org.texi: Rewrite Org Mobile section

* doc/misc/org.texi (Org Mobile): Rewrite from "MobileOrg" section.
Remove all references to non-free software.  Move into
"Miscellaneous".

This reflects Nicolas Goaziou's changes from Org's b929e5d77,
46b49ab57, and 3f826b9f7.
---
 doc/misc/org.texi | 293 ++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------
 1 file changed, 152 insertions(+), 141 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/misc/org.texi b/doc/misc/org.texi
index 60647e65e8..873ce4d2cd 100644
--- a/doc/misc/org.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/org.texi
@@ -325,7 +325,6 @@ Top
 * Working with source code::    Export, evaluate, and tangle code blocks
 * Miscellaneous::               All the rest which did not fit elsewhere
 * Hacking::                     How to hack your way around
-* MobileOrg::                   Viewing and capture on a mobile device
 * History and acknowledgments::  How Org came into being
 * GNU Free Documentation License::  The license for this documentation.
 * Main Index::                  An index of Org's concepts and features
@@ -760,12 +759,19 @@ Top
 * TTY keys::                    Using Org on a tty
 * Interaction::                 With other Emacs packages
 * org-crypt::                   Encrypting Org files
+* Org Mobile::                  Viewing and capture on a mobile device
 
 Interaction with other packages
 
 * Cooperation::                 Packages Org cooperates with
 * Conflicts::                   Packages that lead to conflicts
 
+Org Mobile
+
+* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
+* Pushing to the mobile application::  Uploading Org files and agendas
+* Pulling from the mobile application::  Integrating captured and flagged items
+
 Hacking
 
 * Hooks::                       How to reach into Org's internals
@@ -788,12 +794,6 @@ Top
 * Translator functions::        Copy and modify
 * Radio lists::                 Sending and receiving lists
 
-MobileOrg
-
-* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
-* Pushing to MobileOrg::        Uploading Org files and agendas
-* Pulling from MobileOrg::      Integrating captured and flagged items
-
 @end detailmenu
 @end menu
 
@@ -17253,6 +17253,7 @@ Miscellaneous
 * TTY keys::                    Using Org on a tty
 * Interaction::                 With other Emacs packages
 * org-crypt::                   Encrypting Org files
+* Org Mobile::                  Viewing and capture on a mobile device
 @end menu
 
 
@@ -18187,6 +18188,150 @@ org-crypt
 Excluding the crypt tag from inheritance prevents encrypting previously
 encrypted text.
 
+@node Org Mobile
+@section Org Mobile
+
+@cindex smartphone
+
+Org Mobile is a protocol for synchronizing Org files between Emacs and
+other applications, e.g., on mobile devices.  It enables offline-views
+and capture support for an Org mode system that is rooted on a ``real''
+computer.  The external application can also record changes to
+existing entries.
+
+This appendix describes Org's support for agenda view formats
+compatible with Org Mobile.  It also describes synchronizing changes,
+such as to notes, between the mobile application and the computer.
+
+To change tags and TODO states in the mobile application, first
+customize the variables @code{org-todo-keywords} and @code{org-tag-alist}.
+These should cover all the important tags and TODO keywords, even if
+Org files use only some of them.  Though the mobile application is
+expected to support in-buffer settings, it is required to understand
+TODO states @emph{sets} (see @ref{Per-file keywords}) and
+@emph{mutually exclusive} tags (see @ref{Setting tags}) only for those set in
+these variables.
+
+@menu
+* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
+* Pushing to the mobile application::  Uploading Org files and agendas
+* Pulling from the mobile application::  Integrating captured and flagged items
+@end menu
+
+@node Setting up the staging area
+@subsection Setting up the staging area
+
+@vindex org-mobile-directory
+The mobile application needs access to a file directory on
+a server@footnote{For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server,
+such as @uref{https://nextcloud.com, Nextcloud}.  Additional help is at this @uref{https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav, FAQ entry}.} to interact with Emacs.  Pass its location through
+the @code{org-mobile-directory} variable.  If you can mount that directory
+locally just set the variable to point to that directory:
+
+@lisp
+(setq org-mobile-directory "~/orgmobile/")
+@end lisp
+
+@noindent
+Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see @ref{Top,TRAMP User Manual,,tramp,}),
+@code{org-mobile-directory} may point to a remote directory accessible
+through, for example, SSH and SCP:
+
+@lisp
+(setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@@remote.host:org/webdav/")
+@end lisp
+
+@vindex org-mobile-encryption
+With a public server, consider encrypting the files.  Org also
+requires OpenSSL installed on the local computer.  To turn on
+encryption, set the same password in the mobile application and in
+Emacs.  Set the password in the variable
+@code{org-mobile-use-encryption}@footnote{If Emacs is configured for safe storing of passwords, then
+configure the variable @code{org-mobile-encryption-password}; please read
+the docstring of that variable.}.  Note that even after the mobile
+application encrypts the file contents, the file name remains visible
+on the file systems of the local computer, the server, and the mobile
+device.
+
+@node Pushing to the mobile application
+@subsection Pushing to the mobile application
+
+@findex org-mobile-push
+@vindex org-mobile-files
+The command @code{org-mobile-push} copies files listed in
+@code{org-mobile-files} into the staging area.  Files include agenda files
+(as listed in @code{org-agenda-files}).  Customize @code{org-mobile-files} to
+add other files.  File names are staged with paths relative to
+@code{org-directory}, so all files should be inside this directory@footnote{Symbolic links in @code{org-directory} need to have the same name
+as their targets.}.
+
+Push creates a special Org file @samp{agendas.org} with custom agenda views
+defined by the user@footnote{While creating the agendas, Org mode forces ID properties on
+all referenced entries, so that these entries can be uniquely
+identified if Org Mobile flags them for further action.  To avoid
+setting properties configure the variable
+@code{org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items} to @code{nil}.  Org mode then relies
+on outline paths, assuming they are unique.}.
+
+Finally, Org writes the file @samp{index.org}, containing links to other
+files.  The mobile application reads this file first from the server
+to determine what other files to download for agendas.  For faster
+downloads, it is expected to only read files whose checksums@footnote{Checksums are stored automatically in the file
+@samp{checksums.dat}.}
+have changed.
+
+@node Pulling from the mobile application
+@subsection Pulling from the mobile application
+
+@findex org-mobile-pull
+The command @code{org-mobile-pull} synchronizes changes with the server.
+More specifically, it first pulls the Org files for viewing.  It then
+appends captured entries and pointers to flagged or changed entries to
+the file @samp{mobileorg.org} on the server.  Org ultimately integrates its
+data in an inbox file format, through the following steps:
+
+@enumerate
+@item
+@vindex org-mobile-inbox-for-pull
+Org moves all entries found in @samp{mobileorg.org}@footnote{The file will be empty after this operation.} and appends
+them to the file pointed to by the variable
+@code{org-mobile-inbox-for-pull}.  It should reside neither in the
+staging area nor on the server.  Each captured entry and each
+editing event is a top-level entry in the inbox file.
+
+@item
+@cindex @samp{FLAGGED}, tag
+After moving the entries, Org processes changes to the shared
+files.  Some of them are applied directly and without user
+interaction.  Examples include changes to tags, TODO state,
+headline and body text.  Entries requiring further action are
+tagged as @samp{FLAGGED}.  Org marks entries with problems with an error
+message in the inbox.  They have to be resolved manually.
+
+@item
+Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user
+intervention to clean up.  For notes stored in flagged entries, Org
+displays them in the echo area when point is on the corresponding
+agenda item.
+
+@table @asis
+@item @kbd{?}
+Pressing @kbd{?} displays the entire flagged note in
+another window.  Org also pushes it to the kill ring.  To
+store flagged note as a normal note, use @kbd{? z C-y C-c C-c}.  Pressing @kbd{?} twice does these things: first
+it removes the @samp{FLAGGED} tag; second, it removes the flagged
+note from the property drawer; third, it signals that manual
+editing of the flagged entry is now finished.
+@end table
+@end enumerate
+
+@kindex ? @r{(Agenda dispatcher)}
+From the agenda dispatcher, @kbd{?} returns to the view to finish
+processing flagged entries.  Note that these entries may not be the
+most recent since the mobile application searches files that were last
+pulled.  To get an updated agenda view with changes since the last
+pull, pull again.
+
 @node Hacking
 @appendix Hacking
 @cindex hacking
@@ -19151,140 +19296,6 @@ Using the mapping API
 (length (org-map-entries t "/+WAITING" 'agenda))
 @end lisp
 
-@node MobileOrg
-@appendix MobileOrg
-@cindex iPhone
-@cindex MobileOrg
-
-MobileOrg is a companion mobile app that runs on iOS and Android devices.
-MobileOrg enables offline-views and capture support for an Org mode system
-that is rooted on a ``real'' computer.  MobileOrg can record changes to
-existing entries.
-
-The @uref{https://github.com/MobileOrg/, iOS implementation} for the
-@emph{iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad} series of devices, was started by Richard
-Moreland and is now in the hands Sean Escriva.  Android users should check
-out @uref{http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/, MobileOrg
-Android} by Matt Jones.  Though the two implementations are not identical,
-they offer similar features.
-
-This appendix describes Org's support for agenda view formats compatible with
-MobileOrg.  It also describes synchronizing changes, such as to notes,
-between MobileOrg and the computer.
-
-To change tags and TODO states in MobileOrg, first customize the variables
-@code{org-todo-keywords} and @code{org-tag-alist}.  These should cover all
-the important tags and TODO keywords, even if Org files use only some of
-them.  Though MobileOrg has in-buffer settings, it understands TODO states
-@emph{sets} (@pxref{Per-file keywords}) and @emph{mutually exclusive} tags
-(@pxref{Setting tags}) only for those set in these variables.
-
-@menu
-* Setting up the staging area::  For the mobile device
-* Pushing to MobileOrg::        Uploading Org files and agendas
-* Pulling from MobileOrg::      Integrating captured and flagged items
-@end menu
-
-@node Setting up the staging area
-@section Setting up the staging area
-
-MobileOrg needs access to a file directory on a server to interact with
-Emacs.  With a public server, consider encrypting the files.  MobileOrg
-version 1.5 supports encryption for the iPhone.  Org also requires
-@file{openssl} installed on the local computer.  To turn on encryption, set
-the same password in MobileOrg and in Emacs.  Set the password in the
-variable @code{org-mobile-use-encryption}@footnote{If Emacs is configured for
-safe storing of passwords, then configure the variable,
-@code{org-mobile-encryption-password}; please read the docstring of that
-variable.}.  Note that even after MobileOrg encrypts the file contents, the
-file names will remain visible on the file systems of the local computer, the
-server, and the mobile device.
-
-For a server to host files, consider options like
-@uref{http://dropbox.com,Dropbox.com} account@footnote{An alternative is to
-use webdav server.  MobileOrg documentation has details of webdav server
-configuration.  Additional help is at
-@uref{https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav, FAQ entry}.}.
-On first connection, MobileOrg creates a directory @file{MobileOrg/} on
-Dropbox.  Pass its location to Emacs through an init file variable as
-follows:
-
-@lisp
-(setq org-mobile-directory "~/Dropbox/MobileOrg")
-@end lisp
-
-Org copies files to the above directory for MobileOrg.  Org also uses the
-same directory for sharing notes between Org and MobileOrg.
-
-@node Pushing to MobileOrg
-@section Pushing to MobileOrg
-
-Org pushes files listed in @code{org-mobile-files} to
-@code{org-mobile-directory}.  Files include agenda files (as listed in
-@code{org-agenda-files}).  Customize @code{org-mobile-files} to add other
-files.  File names will be staged with paths relative to
-@code{org-directory}, so all files should be inside this
-directory@footnote{Symbolic links in @code{org-directory} should have the
-same name as their targets.}.
-
-Push creates a special Org file @file{agendas.org} with custom agenda views
-defined by the user@footnote{While creating the agendas, Org mode will force
-ID properties on all referenced entries, so that these entries can be
-uniquely identified if MobileOrg flags them for further action.  To avoid
-setting properties configure the variable
-@code{org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items} to @code{nil}.  Org mode will then
-rely on outline paths, assuming they are unique.}.
-
-Org writes the file @file{index.org}, containing links to other files.
-MobileOrg reads this file first from the server to determine what other files
-to download for agendas.  For faster downloads, MobileOrg will read only
-those files whose checksums@footnote{Checksums are stored automatically in
-the file @file{checksums.dat}.} have changed.
-
-@node Pulling from MobileOrg
-@section Pulling from MobileOrg
-
-When MobileOrg synchronizes with the server, it pulls the Org files for
-viewing.  It then appends to the file @file{mobileorg.org} on the server the
-captured entries, pointers to flagged and changed entries.  Org integrates
-its data in an inbox file format.
-
-@enumerate
-@item
-Org moves all entries found in
-@file{mobileorg.org}@footnote{@file{mobileorg.org} will be empty after this
-operation.} and appends them to the file pointed to by the variable
-@code{org-mobile-inbox-for-pull}.  Each captured entry and each editing event
-is a top-level entry in the inbox file.
-@item
-After moving the entries, Org attempts changes to MobileOrg.  Some changes
-are applied directly and without user interaction.  Examples include changes
-to tags, TODO state, headline and body text.  Entries for further action are
-tagged as @code{:FLAGGED:}.  Org marks entries with problems with an error
-message in the inbox.  They have to be resolved manually.
-@item
-Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user intervention to
-clean up.  For notes stored in flagged entries, MobileOrg displays them in
-the echo area when the cursor is on the corresponding agenda item.
-
-@table @kbd
-@kindex ?
-@item ?
-Pressing @kbd{?} displays the entire flagged note in another window.  Org
-also pushes it to the kill ring.  To store flagged note as a normal note, use
-@kbd{?  z C-y C-c C-c}.  Pressing @kbd{?} twice does these things: first it
-removes the @code{:FLAGGED:} tag; second, it removes the flagged note from
-the property drawer; third, it signals that manual editing of the flagged
-entry is now finished.
-@end table
-@end enumerate
-
-@kindex C-c a ?
-@kbd{C-c a ?} returns to the agenda view to finish processing flagged
-entries.  Note that these entries may not be the most recent since MobileOrg
-searches files that were last pulled.  To get an updated agenda view with
-changes since the last pull, pull again.
-
 @node History and acknowledgments
 @appendix History and acknowledgments
 @cindex acknowledgments
-- 
2.19.0

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> please?

I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 

You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
@node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 16:53:04 +0200
> Cc: 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, n@flqt.fr, leslie@watter.net, right.ho@gmail.com,
> 	kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> 
> > This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> > If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> > go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> > updated.
> 
> For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
> This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox".

Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
please?

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

> 1 Setting up the staging area
> ═════════════════════════════
>
>   The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
>
>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>
>   ┌────
>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>   └────
>
> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).

Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
"nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention this.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

> 1 Setting up the staging area
> ═════════════════════════════
>
>   The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
>
>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>
>   ┌────
>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>   └────
>
> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).

Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
"nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention this.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:
>>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>>
>>   ┌────
>>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>>   └────
>>
>> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
>> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).
>
> Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
> systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
> "nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention
> this.

Sure. How about this?

    Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
    `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
    through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:

      (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

>     Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>     `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>     through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:
>
>       (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")

Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
Otherwise, LGTM.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

>     Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>     `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>     through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:
>
>       (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")

Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
Otherwise, LGTM.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
> Otherwise, LGTM.

Done. Thank you.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
> Otherwise, LGTM.

Done. Thank you.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:
>>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>>
>>   ┌────
>>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>>   └────
>>
>> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
>> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).
>
> Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
> systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
> "nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention
> this.

Sure. How about this?

    Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
    `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
    through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:

      (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Leslie Watter]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2276 bytes --]

Hello all,

Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
will have
to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
development of MobileOrg
in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

Updating the software could help more than just forking it and publishing
it with another name.  There's
some options (Orgzly, Syncthing) that can be used but none of them are as
usefull as MobileOrg.

So, if anyone could contact Matthew Jones (https://github.com/matburt) and
offer some help
I think that could be a better approach than just forking it. Unfortunately
I cannot help at this point.

Cheers,

LEslie

[0] - https://github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/issues/501

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:17 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> I asked
>
>   > > Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
>   > > server without any nonfree client software?
>
> Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>'s information
> shows that using WebDAV is no problem.
>
>   > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
>   > worg page:
>   > 1. SSH
>   > 2. Local filesystem
>
> It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those
> methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program
> that could be in f-droid.  It would be useful for someone to do that
> and publish it under a different name.
>
> Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to
> use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg.
>
> Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything
> that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg.
> We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new
> version when that new version is available.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Leslie H. Watter

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3497 bytes --]

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I asked 

  > > Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
  > > server without any nonfree client software?

Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>'s information
shows that using WebDAV is no problem.

  > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
  > worg page:
  > 1. SSH
  > 2. Local filesystem

It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those
methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program
that could be in f-droid.  It would be useful for someone to do that
and publish it under a different name.

Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to
use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg.

Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything
that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg.
We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new
version when that new version is available.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Bingo UV]

Hi RMS, Nicolas
   The concrete software MobileOrg on Android is somewhat of an orphan.
   It may not revive as itself. But there is also a protocol mobileorg,
   which the manual alludes to, though does not document directly. That
   protocol is very much an enabler of software freedom, and it is
   important for the next MobileOrg to be written. I hope it survives
   these questions.

The protocol can be used to sync 2 sets of org-mode files between 2
emacs instances - without needing the iOS or Android versions of
MobileOrg. When fancypants sync systems like dropbox, git, syncthing,
rsync etc. are not available, the mobileorg protocol can be used to
transfer changes from one place to another.

As for the questions :

On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:50:26 -0400
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> What is the source license of Mobile.org?

GPLv3
(https://github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/blob/master/LICENSE.txt)

> 
Is it listed in f-droid.org?

It used to be, it has been kicked out of f-droid due to violating
policies : including dubious jars. Dropbox API that it was using was
surely non-free.


>   > [fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
>   > documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.
>   > Additional help is at this
>   > [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ
>   > entry]].  
> 
> Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?
> 
> Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
> server without any nonfree client software?

There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
worg page:
1. SSH
2. Local filesystem


Also, since one can write one's own WebDAV server using specs, it
doesn't matter if some particular WebDAV servers are free or not.

thanks

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The crucial question here is whether Mobile.org is free software.  If
it is not, then GNU packages including their documentation should not
mention it at all.  See the chapter References in the GNU Coding
Standards.

What is the source license of Mobile.org?

Does Mobile.org for Android link with any nonfree libraries,
such as Google Play Library?  Is it listed in f-droid.org?

I don't think it is possible to have free apps for the iMonsters.
This is because iOS does not allow users to install modified versions
of apps, even if the app's source is released under a free license.


Another issue is the suggestion to use DropBox.
Normal use of Dropbox involves running nonfree JS software
(see https://gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html),
so we cannot recommend using Dropbox in the normal way.

If there is a way to use Dropbox (for those operations that are
necessary in this context) without running any nonfree client
software, it would be ok to recommend using Dropbox _in that way_.
(The operations necessary in this context must include creating an
account.)

However, the text you showed me does not include such a specific
recommendation, so we have to eliminate it.  We could reinsert the
discussion of Dropbox if and when someone writes text to recommend a
suitable specific way to use it.

  > [fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
  > documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.  Additional
  > help is at this [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ entry]].

Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?

Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
server without any nonfree client software?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 22:55:15 -0400
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr
> 
>   > >From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
>   > just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
>   > instead of htmlize.
> 
> To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?

This is an Org issue, so I would like to hear from Org developers
before I make up my mind.

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Adam Porter]

I'm not an expert on this package nor this situation, however, looking
at the htmlize.el file shows:

    ;; Copyright (C) 1997-2003,2005,2006,2009,2011,2012,2014,2017,2018

So it would appear that the package has existed longer than either
GitHub or Org.  I'm guessing that its author moved its primary repo to
GitHub after Org started using it.

In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to move htmlize into
Emacs before adding it to Org proper.  But many things are clearer in
hindsight.

Regardless of where it is hosted, htmlize.el is Free Software, and it's
an optional addon to Org.  We can encourage its author to add it to
Emacs proper, or to ELPA.  But surely it's not necessary to censor the
mention of "GitHub" in the manual; it's simply a fact that GitHub exists
and that htmlize.el is currently hosted there.  It would seem
unreasonable for the Org maintainers to have reacted to htmlize.el's
moving to GitHub by removing htmlize.el support while it remains Free
Software, yet that's the logical conclusion of this argument.

So please do not remove support for this package because of where its
repo happens to be hosted at the moment.  That would be a major
regression, and it would not be in users' best interests.  It would not
be fair to remove a major feature used by thousands of users and demand
that "someone" (since there is no one ultimately responsible) rewrite
large parts of ox-html.el to fix it.  It would at least seem fair for
those insisting on the change to do the necessary work.

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nick Dokos]

Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net> writes:

> I'm not an expert on this package nor this situation, however, looking
> at the htmlize.el file shows:
>
>     ;; Copyright (C) 1997-2003,2005,2006,2009,2011,2012,2014,2017,2018
>
> So it would appear that the package has existed longer than either
> GitHub or Org.  I'm guessing that its author moved its primary repo to
> GitHub after Org started using it.
>
> In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to move htmlize into
> Emacs before adding it to Org proper.  But many things are clearer in
> hindsight.
>
> Regardless of where it is hosted, htmlize.el is Free Software, and it's
> an optional addon to Org.  We can encourage its author to add it to
> Emacs proper, or to ELPA.  But surely it's not necessary to censor the
> mention of "GitHub" in the manual; it's simply a fact that GitHub exists
> and that htmlize.el is currently hosted there.  It would seem
> unreasonable for the Org maintainers to have reacted to htmlize.el's
> moving to GitHub by removing htmlize.el support while it remains Free
> Software, yet that's the logical conclusion of this argument.
>

I had exactly the same reaction.

> So please do not remove support for this package because of where its
> repo happens to be hosted at the moment.  That would be a major
> regression, and it would not be in users' best interests.  It would not
> be fair to remove a major feature used by thousands of users and demand
> that "someone" (since there is no one ultimately responsible) rewrite
> large parts of ox-html.el to fix it.  It would at least seem fair for
> those insisting on the change to do the necessary work.
>

I don't usually +1 replies but I wanted to chime in my agreement with
Adam here.  Thanks for taking the time to put your (and my!) thoughts
into words.

If Github is indeed the sticking point, why can't it (the htmlize
repo) be cloned on the same server as org-mode (possibly as its own
repo, possibly as a git submodule)? It's not a fast moving target: a
handful or two of commits per year. The doc can then avoid the Gihub
ref (although it does seem silly to pretend that Github does not
exist).

-- 
Nick

"There are only two hard problems in computer science: cache
invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors." -Martin Fowler

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Bernt Hansen]

Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> writes:

> Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net> writes:
>
>> I'm not an expert on this package nor this situation, however, looking
>> at the htmlize.el file shows:
>>
>>     ;; Copyright (C) 1997-2003,2005,2006,2009,2011,2012,2014,2017,2018
>>
>> So it would appear that the package has existed longer than either
>> GitHub or Org.  I'm guessing that its author moved its primary repo to
>> GitHub after Org started using it.
>>
>> In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to move htmlize into
>> Emacs before adding it to Org proper.  But many things are clearer in
>> hindsight.
>>
>> Regardless of where it is hosted, htmlize.el is Free Software, and it's
>> an optional addon to Org.  We can encourage its author to add it to
>> Emacs proper, or to ELPA.  But surely it's not necessary to censor the
>> mention of "GitHub" in the manual; it's simply a fact that GitHub exists
>> and that htmlize.el is currently hosted there.  It would seem
>> unreasonable for the Org maintainers to have reacted to htmlize.el's
>> moving to GitHub by removing htmlize.el support while it remains Free
>> Software, yet that's the logical conclusion of this argument.
>>
>
> I had exactly the same reaction.

Me too!

>
>> So please do not remove support for this package because of where its
>> repo happens to be hosted at the moment.  That would be a major
>> regression, and it would not be in users' best interests.  It would not
>> be fair to remove a major feature used by thousands of users and demand
>> that "someone" (since there is no one ultimately responsible) rewrite
>> large parts of ox-html.el to fix it.  It would at least seem fair for
>> those insisting on the change to do the necessary work.
>>
>
> I don't usually +1 replies but I wanted to chime in my agreement with
> Adam here.  Thanks for taking the time to put your (and my!) thoughts
> into words.
>
> If Github is indeed the sticking point, why can't it (the htmlize
> repo) be cloned on the same server as org-mode (possibly as its own
> repo, possibly as a git submodule)? It's not a fast moving target: a
> handful or two of commits per year. The doc can then avoid the Gihub
> ref (although it does seem silly to pretend that Github does not
> exist).

I completely agree with Adam and Nick's take on this issue.  Breaking
HTML export by removing htmlize is going to have a huge negative impact
on Org users and since the package is already free software what is the
point?

Regards,
Bernt

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
  > just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
  > instead of htmlize.

To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
> Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)

This has been discussed before on the Org mailing list.

From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
instead of htmlize.