From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#12911: 24.3.50; let users decide where (& perhaps whether) `emacs_backtrace.txt' files are written Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:05:27 +0200 Message-ID: <838v9xxss8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wqxk3d1z.fsf@gnu.org> <83y5hyxnb1.fsf@gnu.org> <83wqxhy4ha.fsf@gnu.org> <83fw45xxzk.fsf@gnu.org> <83ehjpxwqd.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1353355627 31155 80.91.229.3 (19 Nov 2012 20:07:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:07:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 12911@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 19 21:07:18 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXcj-0007Q1-SW for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:07:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46200 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXcZ-0006Q5-Dh for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:07:07 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:45807) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXcT-0006Pg-Ft for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:07:05 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXcP-0008Jx-Gp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:07:01 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:45324) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXcP-0008Jl-Dc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:06:57 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXdR-0000XN-VB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:08:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:08:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12911 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 12911-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12911.13533556262000 (code B ref 12911); Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:08:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 12911) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Nov 2012 20:07:06 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55575 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXcV-0000W9-7f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:07:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:46155) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TaXcP-0000Vh-Ls for 12911@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:07:01 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MDR006003TMQ800@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 12911@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:05:50 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MDR006L63TPLJ50@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:05:50 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:67181 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 12911@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:47:26 -0500 > > >> I don't know of any case under Unix where stderr is dumped into the > >> great void > > It can still scroll off the screen. Or end up in some file that the > > window-system developers or admins set up, and that is some random or > > unknown place, as far as Emacs users and maintainers are concerned. > > I see no significant difference. > > The difference is that the above cases are hypothetical, whereas the w32 > case is the norm. Neither is correct. I just had the backtrace on GNU/Linux scroll off on me (a TTY session crashed). And I almost always invoke Emacs on Windows in a way that leaves stderr output around. But that is besides the point. For J.R. Hacker who reads the manual, what matters is what happens on her machine, not the statistical average. And what happens on her machine could well be that stderr ends up in some random place on her disk. As long as that is a real possibility, writing emacs_backtrace.txt in the directory it is written now on Windows is equivalent to what happens on Unix. Making it in ~/.emacs.d on w32 alone doesn't change the basic fact that most of the users we care about will still have their backtraces in random places. Why not change that on all platforms? Why demand that only of w32? For that matter, why do you care so much about w32 users? > >> >> So let me reword my suggestion: > >> >> I suggested to change the code such that, in those cases where we need > >> >> to use emacs_backtrace.txt, we use ~/.emacs.d/backtrace.txt instead. > >> > I already agreed to this, provided that Emacs puts stderr output there > >> > on all platforms. > >> Yes, on all platforms where emacs_backtrace.txt is needed (in practice, > >> this does reduce to w32, AFAIK). > > No, on _all_ platforms. > > We disagree on the "is needed" part. No, we disagree about the importance of uniformity in operation across platforms. Either the data is in a platform-specific place, in which case the current arrangement is as good as any, or it is in the same Emacs-specific place on all platforms. The latter is the arrangement I'd support and it will give me enough motivation to spend more effort on this (although I'm not sure I have any energy left after this longish discussion).