From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#17362: 24.4.50; inconsistent key notation: `ESC' vs `' Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 19:19:17 +0300 Message-ID: <838uqom7lm.fsf@gnu.org> References: <47b1a857-a5d6-4e5a-b8f6-f96f9e201c89@default> <83fvkwmagn.fsf@gnu.org> <4294927c-08b3-4c65-83e4-1582e8d0d859@default> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1398788424 23011 80.91.229.3 (29 Apr 2014 16:20:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:20:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 29 18:20:17 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAlV-000891-0U for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:20:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51096 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAlU-0004DL-KZ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:20:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33367) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAlN-00048j-DZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:20:14 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAlI-0006bg-4t for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:20:09 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:56156) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAlI-0006ZS-1U for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:20:04 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAlH-0000Mo-7V for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:20:03 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:20:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 17362 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D17362.13987883591325 (code D ref 17362); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:20:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 17362-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2014 16:19:19 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45274 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAkY-0000LI-SK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:19:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:42477) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAkV-0000Kn-W5 for 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:19:17 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N4S00B00VJE7G00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 19:20:28 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N4S006KCW24DJ80@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 19:20:28 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <4294927c-08b3-4c65-83e4-1582e8d0d859@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:88440 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 08:40:52 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: dmoncayo@gmail.com, 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > > - If a key does not have a label, its name should be in all caps, > > as in @key{TAB} or @key{META}. > > > > - There are 2 exceptions to the last 2 rules, both for historical > > reasons: > > > > * @key{BACKSPACE}, although many keyboards have a "Backspace" > > label on it. > > > > * @key{ESC}, which is labeled "Esc". > > Eli, are you saying that you have replaced , , etc. > everywhere with , , etc., or that you think it is > appropriate to do so? Only for BACKSPACE (and, of course, only in the manual). It's still "Delete" (because that's the label on the key). ESC and TAB and SPC and RET were always in caps, so they stay in caps. > Seems like that would be a big change from the past and a change from > how Emacs itself communicates with users. AFAIK, Emacs writes > for the Delete key etc. The rule for function keys and pseudo function > keys has always been to use lowercase (in angle brackets), no? Yes, because they are symbols. I did nothing about symbols, of course. > You will perhaps say that refers only to the keyboard key, and > not to an Emacs key sequence. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "an Emacs key sequence". How does it differ from TAB the key? Again, I only changed how keys are referenced in the manual in the context of documenting keybindings. > And I would have thought that the keyboard keys would anyway be > written the same as they are on the keyboard: Tab, Backspace, Delete, > Esc, not , , , . On may keyboards, TAB and BACKSPACE have no labels, and the traditional DEL key didn't have one, either. I agree that nowadays the situation is not 100% clear, but I simply chose to go with tradition in these cases. > 1. The way Emacs talks to users, via `kbd', `edmacro-parse-keys', and > help output in general should not be changed. > > 2. The doc (manual) should follow the same conventions as `kbd', > `edmacro-parse-keys' and help output in general. > > I am more concerned about #1 than #2. I don't actually see you > proposing any change wrt #1 so far, which is good. I didn't propose and didn't change anything under #1. As for #2, I think it's impossible to satisfy that without changing significantly how we describe keys in the manual. > I do not, however, see a good reason why Emacs doc (manuals) should > represent key sequences differently than Emacs help does. That kind > of goes against Occam's razor, multiplying things unnecessarily. No reason but history and Texinfo style guidelines.