From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#9571: 24.0.50; user option to turn off bidi, please Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:49:24 +0300 Message-ID: <837h4yqvt7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obybg01n.fsf@gmail.com> <87hb43fsq0.fsf@gmail.com> <83zkhvr07u.fsf@gnu.org> <631B4E70034844D78E123FF1527968C2@us.oracle.com> <83mxdvqhee.fsf@gnu.org> <42AFDF737DB84A93858CA84ABA91A84D@us.oracle.com> <83fwjnqbxs.fsf@gnu.org> <1EB39F8E0391465CB3F1803054CAF35D@us.oracle.com> <249B07D27CD640E69D493B6FC05CD73E@us.oracle.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1316846865 16143 80.91.229.12 (24 Sep 2011 06:47:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:47:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 9571@debbugs.gnu.org, lekktu@gmail.com, stepnem@gmail.com To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 24 08:47:40 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1U-0001nf-FQ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:47:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46409 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1R-00019X-T5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:47:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57593) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1P-00019D-5L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:47:36 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1N-0007TW-9w for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:47:35 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:58608) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1N-0007TM-89 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:47:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1q-0005rf-TJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:48:03 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:48:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9571 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 9571-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9571.131684688122535 (code B ref 9571); Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:48:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 9571) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Sep 2011 06:48:01 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1o-0005rQ-Vf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:48:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7M1j-0005rE-8s for 9571@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:47:56 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LS000K00LAWX000@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9571@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:47:22 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.8.215]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LS000KVHLIXC890@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:47:22 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <249B07D27CD640E69D493B6FC05CD73E@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:48:02 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:51760 Archived-At: > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , , > <9571@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:32:08 -0700 I said everything I could in this matter. What is left is discussion of what is limbo and what the church thinks about that, for which I have neither time nor motivation. Just a few minor remarks, before I get back to fixing the bug I was working on before this erupted. > I mention Richard here because he is more likely than I to listen to and > understand correctly the explanations about the design. We will not see what Richard thinks until we are done with basics. Any serious discussion of these issues and the related trade-offs must be based on good understanding of the details of the design and implementation. We are not there yet, sadly. ("Sadly" because I wish I had someone more experienced and talented than myself available to delve into the design and talk about this during the past 2 years, while I labored on it.) > > Do you understand what kind and amount of highly technical stuff > > will have to be in the manual in order to explain this in enough > > detail for users to understand it? > > What kind and amount of "highly technical stuff" did you have to go into, to > communicate to us those few corner cases? They are not "few". I just mentioned a few, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to it. > Then so is the same variable as a NON-option bogus. And then so is its > treatment in two (count 'em!) Emacs manuals. I didn't create that variable, nor > did I describe it in the manuals. There's a very good reason why this variable is in the manuals. The words used to describe it in both manuals were carefully chosen, both to avoid any factual inaccuracies and still leave it vague enough to allow changes in the underlying implementation. In particular, it's not an incident that it expressly does NOT say in any of the 2 manuals what is the precise effect on reordering of buffer text if this variable is set to a nil value. I encourage you to re-read the text with that in mind. Maybe then you will understand why I described it, even though using it means living closer to the edge, and why the fact that it is documented says nothing at all about the legitimacy of using it as a user-level toggle.