Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Ruijie Yu via Emacs development discussions.]

Hello Po Lu,

On Aug 9, 2023, at 09:51, Po Lu via Mailing list for Emacs changes <emacs-diffs@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> branch: master
> commit 391ff93f763228fb62a8d658a190a60e4a0a1791
> Author: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Commit: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> 
>    * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.
> ---
> doc/misc/calc.texi | 4 ++--
> 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/doc/misc/calc.texi b/doc/misc/calc.texi
> index 00c0fa6001a..5064f76e7b8 100644
> --- a/doc/misc/calc.texi
> +++ b/doc/misc/calc.texi
> @@ -28476,12 +28476,12 @@ B and
> the octave numbered 0 was chosen to correspond to the lowest
> audible frequency.  Using this system, middle C (about 261.625 Hz)
> corresponds to the note @slanted{C} in octave 4 and is denoted
> -@slanted{C@sub{4}}.  Any frequency can be described by giving a note plus an
> +@slanted{C4}.  Any frequency can be described by giving a note plus an
> offset in cents (where a cent is a ratio of frequencies so that a
> semitone consists of 100 cents).

I presume you made this change because of a newly introduced warning/error -- sorry if I have missed any relevant discussion. 

However, the new version would (IIRC) misalign with the usual musical notation, where we have "C" and "4" side by side in italics, but what we really need is "C" and subscripted "4", maybe both italicized (I don’t know whether we really need italicization, someone else might have a better idea). 

I don’t have any experience in writing texi files, but can we do this instead without triggering any warnings/errors? 

    @slanted{C}@sub{@slanted{4}}

> The midi note number system assigns numbers to notes so that
> -@slanted{C@sub{-1}} corresponds to the midi note number 0 and @slanted{G@sub{9}}
> +@slanted{C-1} corresponds to the midi note number 0 and @slanted{G9}
> corresponds to the midi note number 127.   A midi controller can have
> up to 128 keys and each midi note number from  0 to 127 corresponds to
> a possible key.

And also here regarding C-1 and G9. 

Thanks. 

--
Best,


RY

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Po Lu]

Ruijie Yu via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
writes:

> Hello Po Lu,
>
> On Aug 9, 2023, at 09:51, Po Lu via Mailing list for Emacs changes <emacs-diffs@gnu.org> wrote:
>> 
>> branch: master
>> commit 391ff93f763228fb62a8d658a190a60e4a0a1791
>> Author: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
>> Commit: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
>> 
>>    * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.
>> ---
>> doc/misc/calc.texi | 4 ++--
>> 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
>> 
>> diff --git a/doc/misc/calc.texi b/doc/misc/calc.texi
>> index 00c0fa6001a..5064f76e7b8 100644
>> --- a/doc/misc/calc.texi
>> +++ b/doc/misc/calc.texi
>> @@ -28476,12 +28476,12 @@ B and
>> the octave numbered 0 was chosen to correspond to the lowest
>> audible frequency.  Using this system, middle C (about 261.625 Hz)
>> corresponds to the note @slanted{C} in octave 4 and is denoted
>> -@slanted{C@sub{4}}.  Any frequency can be described by giving a note plus an
>> +@slanted{C4}.  Any frequency can be described by giving a note plus an
>> offset in cents (where a cent is a ratio of frequencies so that a
>> semitone consists of 100 cents).
>
> I presume you made this change because of a newly introduced
> warning/error -- sorry if I have missed any relevant discussion.

Yes; the file fails to compile with the last C version of makeinfo,
4.13.

> However, the new version would (IIRC) misalign with the usual musical
> notation, where we have "C" and "4" side by side in italics, but what
> we really need is "C" and subscripted "4", maybe both italicized (I
> don’t know whether we really need italicization, someone else might
> have a better idea).
>
> I don’t have any experience in writing texi files, but can we do this
> instead without triggering any warnings/errors?
>
>     @slanted{C}@sub{@slanted{4}}

Unfortunately not, because Texinfo 4.13 does not support @sub at all.
Eli, does a substitute for @sub that works in these old versions of
Texinfo present itself to you?

Thanks.

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Ruijie Yu <ruijie@netyu.xyz>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2023 13:55:32 +0800
> 
> > I presume you made this change because of a newly introduced
> > warning/error -- sorry if I have missed any relevant discussion.
> 
> Yes; the file fails to compile with the last C version of makeinfo,
> 4.13.

Then I guess we are getting to the point where makeinfo 4.13 will no
longer be a viable option.  The current makeinfo, though still slower
than 4.13, is significantly faster than the original 5.x versions if
you build Texinfo with Perl extensions, and has too many useful
features to stay with 4.13.  So I urge you to upgrade.

> > I don’t have any experience in writing texi files, but can we do this
> > instead without triggering any warnings/errors?
> >
> >     @slanted{C}@sub{@slanted{4}}
> 
> Unfortunately not, because Texinfo 4.13 does not support @sub at all.
> Eli, does a substitute for @sub that works in these old versions of
> Texinfo present itself to you?

I don't know, please ask on the Texinfo list.  And meanwhile please
revert those changes, they should not have been installed in the first
place.

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Po Lu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Then I guess we are getting to the point where makeinfo 4.13 will no
> longer be a viable option.  The current makeinfo, though still slower
> than 4.13, is significantly faster than the original 5.x versions if
> you build Texinfo with Perl extensions, and has too many useful
> features to stay with 4.13.  So I urge you to upgrade.

[...]

> I don't know, please ask on the Texinfo list.  And meanwhile please
> revert those changes, they should not have been installed in the first
> place.

I would prefer we wait for a need more pressing than @sub before making
such a decision, because Texinfo 5.0 requires a newer Perl than is
installed on many of the systems I use.  In fact, @sub is not strictly
necessary; when the output is Info or ASCII, it emits:

a midi number to scientific pitch notation.  For example, ‘500 Hz’ gets
converted to ‘B_4 + 21.3094853649 cents’ and ‘84’ to ‘C_6’.

which is not very distinct from:

a midi number to scientific pitch notation.  For example, ‘500 Hz’ gets
converted to ‘B4 + 21.3094853649 cents’ and ‘84’ to ‘C6’.

and possibly more confounding, as underscores are seldom seen in musical
notation.

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org,  ruijie@netyu.xyz
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2023 20:24:02 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Then I guess we are getting to the point where makeinfo 4.13 will no
> > longer be a viable option.  The current makeinfo, though still slower
> > than 4.13, is significantly faster than the original 5.x versions if
> > you build Texinfo with Perl extensions, and has too many useful
> > features to stay with 4.13.  So I urge you to upgrade.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > I don't know, please ask on the Texinfo list.  And meanwhile please
> > revert those changes, they should not have been installed in the first
> > place.
> 
> I would prefer we wait for a need more pressing than @sub before making
> such a decision, because Texinfo 5.0 requires a newer Perl than is
> installed on many of the systems I use.

The current Texinfo version is 7.0.3, not 5.0.

> In fact, @sub is not strictly
> necessary; when the output is Info or ASCII, it emits:
> 
> a midi number to scientific pitch notation.  For example, ‘500 Hz’ gets
> converted to ‘B_4 + 21.3094853649 cents’ and ‘84’ to ‘C_6’.
> 
> which is not very distinct from:
> 
> a midi number to scientific pitch notation.  For example, ‘500 Hz’ gets
> converted to ‘B4 + 21.3094853649 cents’ and ‘84’ to ‘C6’.
> 
> and possibly more confounding, as underscores are seldom seen in musical
> notation.

I'm okay with a change that will remove @sub from @ifinfo text, but
before we go that way, please see what the Texinfo folks have to
offer.

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Po Lu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> The current Texinfo version is 7.0.3, not 5.0.

I know.  If Texinfo 5.0 won't work, I doubt 7.0.3 will, on the specific
system where I encountered this compilation failure.

> I'm okay with a change that will remove @sub from @ifinfo text, but
> before we go that way, please see what the Texinfo folks have to
> offer.

Right, I will ask them tomorrow.

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org,  ruijie@netyu.xyz
> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2023 21:04:47 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The current Texinfo version is 7.0.3, not 5.0.
> 
> I know.  If Texinfo 5.0 won't work, I doubt 7.0.3 will, on the specific
> system where I encountered this compilation failure.

What version of Perl do you have?  I think I use the same old version
of Perl (v5.20.1) since Texinfo 5, and it still works with 7.0.3,
including C extensions compiled with MinGW.

Re: master 391ff93f763 3/4: * doc/misc/calc.texi (Musical Notes): Fix build with Texinfo 4.13.

[Po Lu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> What version of Perl do you have?  I think I use the same old version
> of Perl (v5.20.1) since Texinfo 5, and it still works with 7.0.3,
> including C extensions compiled with MinGW.

v5.8.4 (which is supposedly new enough), but Texinfo 5.0 protests that
Encode cannot be found during the configure process.