From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#67185: Small bug in the Introduction to Elisp manual Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:32:08 +0200 Message-ID: <837cmirex3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83edgrrz0h.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12978"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 67185@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman To: Ryan Hodges Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 15 20:34:18 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LeT-000329-Qr for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:34:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LeG-0007s5-Ng; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:34:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LeF-0007mg-7a for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:34:03 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LeE-00070O-W1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:34:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LeD-0001Kx-Qr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:34:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 19:34:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 67185 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 67185-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B67185.17000767955080 (code B ref 67185); Wed, 15 Nov 2023 19:34:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 67185) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2023 19:33:15 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53843 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LdT-0001Js-0j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:33:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41422) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LdN-0001Jb-AB for 67185@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:33:12 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3LdI-0006tU-N9; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:33:04 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=elDc/0i52n8pBaDdJUQ4g5vkNFDEuVzk4BSVh7CeWIw=; b=gDGg4hKNtLvTk7H/Gg3l IiEtGCUJl7NHGukEXmmOLUJq6B5RND984Zm7wDBTam7V9fLzYDtdy94EZ7f2EIPTrDtZas/4uvwwQ vXi14D7H6g4ZxYk7OmT5QtxvV1RogagZZrbGr4tqntEEcjqgfa/GHBKEdlkWxGzFyh+p97GDWzG/Q 82OOCNOwIXxbD0WNxpU61RrwHAB3lcecReojgbqICl6OMCjzwb3rszTJhapItclfKZUY4kyErmh5l B48vNcdydjnreMdPoI60Jn//dDpAVY+RGR5vYv2FLBF2O5003btJuj5NIdh/MGiubzOidK3TK54fO OWXazate3oz2NA==; In-Reply-To: (message from Ryan Hodges on Wed, 15 Nov 2023 09:58:11 -0800) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:274413 Archived-At: [Please use Reply All to reply, so that everyone is CC'ed.] > From: Ryan Hodges > Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 09:58:11 -0800 > > On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 4:18 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > From: Ryan Hodges > > Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:14:53 -0800 > > > > In section '8.2.2 Lisp macro' it says, > > > > "The ‘kill-region’ function definition also has an ‘unless’ macro; it > > is the converse of ‘when’. The ‘unless’ macro is an ‘if’ without a then clause" > > > > Instead of saying "converse of 'when'" it should say "inverse of > > 'when'." > > I'm not a native English speaker, but "converse" sounds correct to me > in this context. > > 'converse' means to reverse the order of. Not necessarily, at least not according to the dictionaries I see. For example (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/converse): The converse of a statement is its opposite or reverse. Or (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/converse): the opposite: . In the US, you drive on the right-hand side of the road, but in the UK the converse applies. . However, the converse of this theory may also be true. > No, it says it doesn't have "then", i.e. it only have the "else" part. > Which sounds fine to me. > > Earlier in the document, 'when' is described as an 'if' statement without an 'else' clause. That makes > sense to me. The 'else' clause is completely optional. i.e the 'if' form below does not have an 'else' > > (if (> 5 4) 'true) > > In this section of the document we are describing an 'if' without a 'then'. That didn't make sense to me > because the 'then' clause is a mandatory argument. It can be 'nil' but it's still mandatory. AFAIU, the text attempts to explain 'when' and 'unless' in terms if 'if', and it doesn't try to be rigorously correct, but rather to be intuitively understandable by people who may not be programmers or have a mathematical background. So "if without then" might not make sense to someone who has the "if" syntax burnt into his/her muscle memory, but it does make sense if you consider that "if" has a "then" block and an "else" block, and "unless" executes the "else" block of the condition. So this is why I asked Richard to review this text and your comments.