From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#17362: 24.4.50; inconsistent key notation: `ESC' vs `' Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 20:51:57 +0300 Message-ID: <8361lsm3b6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <47b1a857-a5d6-4e5a-b8f6-f96f9e201c89@default> <83fvkwmagn.fsf@gnu.org> <4294927c-08b3-4c65-83e4-1582e8d0d859@default> <838uqom7lm.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1398793947 21967 80.91.229.3 (29 Apr 2014 17:52:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 17:52:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 17362@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 29 19:52:19 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCW-0005th-W7 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 19:52:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51605 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCW-0006Xd-K5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:52:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54131) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCO-0006Tx-Rq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:52:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCI-0005FL-KR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:52:08 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:56217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCI-0005FE-Gs for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:52:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCI-0004Fm-0K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:52:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 17:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 17362 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 17362-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B17362.139879392016342 (code B ref 17362); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 17:52:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 17362) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2014 17:52:00 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45335 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCF-0004FW-K0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:52:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:48556) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCCB-0004F7-MJ for 17362@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:51:57 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N4S00100ZQ85P00@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 17362@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 20:49:36 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N4T00IRL06NW790@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 20:49:36 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:88446 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 10:27:03 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: dmoncayo@gmail.com, 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Eli, are you saying that you have replaced , , etc. > > > everywhere with , , etc., or that you think it is > > > appropriate to do so? > > > > Only for BACKSPACE (and, of course, only in the manual). It's still > > "Delete" (because that's the label on the key). ESC and TAB and SPC > > and RET were always in caps, so they stay in caps. > > is not how Emacs refers to the key in help. And neither is > . Emacs help calls these and , AFAICT. I'm not talking about help, I'm only talking about the manual. The bug report was about inconsistencies in the manual. At least that's how I perceived it, and that's the only issue I set out to fix. > > > Seems like that would be a big change from the past and a change from > > > how Emacs itself communicates with users. AFAIK, Emacs writes > > > for the Delete key etc. The rule for function keys and pseudo function > > > keys has always been to use lowercase (in angle brackets), no? > > > > Yes, because they are symbols. I did nothing about symbols, of > > course. > > What does that mean? Which part is unclear? > Emacs writes . Why write ? Emacs writes > . Why write Delete or ? See the guidelines I used to decide on names and capitalization, I tried to explain why I choose this or that convention. > My point is that the manual should write key sequences the same way > Emacs writes them interactively, e.g., in help output. It does not > refer to a key or a Backspace key or a , , > Control, or Ctrl key. Emacs help writes and C- in key > sequences. If that's the issue, then (a) it was nowhere clear from your original bug report, and (b) I will have nothing to do with it, sorry. I don't care enough about it to work on that. I only fixed inconsistencies in the manual, without any relation to what Emacs says in help mode. > Do you even agree that key sequences should be written the same way > in the manual as in the rest of Emacs? Do agree that the manual, > like the rest of Emacs, should write and not C-, > and not C-? Perhaps it could be nice (although it never bothered me), but I think it's close to impossible now, due to various historical reasons. In any case, I'm not going to do anything about this, someone else will have to step forward. I found your complaint about inconsistencies in the manual justified, and I fixed that; my job here is now done.