From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:34:57 +0300 Message-ID: <834og1ghim.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <838w5dgln1.fsf@gnu.org> <837hkxgj4m.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279190418 13536 80.91.229.12 (15 Jul 2010 10:40:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:40:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tom Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 15 12:40:16 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZLrQ-0001za-Iu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:40:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36967 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZLrP-0002BO-RE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:40:11 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=50854 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZLog-0001qI-9c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:37:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZLoe-0003xD-QA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:37:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:62710) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZLoe-0003x3-ID for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:37:20 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5L00G00HEBXV00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:36:53 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5L00D4MHHGKOD0@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:36:53 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127349 Archived-At: > From: Tom > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:14:17 +0000 (UTC) > > Have you seen the image of the learning curve of editors? > > http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060302.html If you base your views on such "evidence", then good luck! > The goal is to make emacs easier to use for the newcomer, so he > stays for a while and has a chance to discover emacs is a beautiful > swan in the disguise of an ugly duckling. :) No, the goal is to attract more programmers to using Emacs as their primary programming tool. You seem to think that enabling CUA will somehow make a significant step towards that goal, because it will cause them "to stay for a while". I think that staying for another 5 minutes will gain nothing, because C-x and C-v are not useful enough for writing code. Programmers need features that help them do their job. If we want to bring more of them on board, there's no way around providing those features. No amount of arguing about CUA and this or that keybinding will be ever able to do anything significant in the direction we all want to go. It's high time to stop talking and start doing. It's high time to stop being afraid of "insufficient resources" and "too large jobs", and start coding. If you want encouragement, just count how many KLOCs we add to Emacs each month.