From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:13:37 +0300 Message-ID: <834ofczxv2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280773637 2616 80.91.229.12 (2 Aug 2010 18:27:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:27:17 +0000 (UTC) Cc: levelhalom@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 02 20:27:15 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfzjE-0002ZU-MS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:27:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34686 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OfzYs-0002rp-6Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:16:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=39865 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OfzW7-0000AM-2l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:13:40 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfzW5-0002Ag-GZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:13:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:63208) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfzW5-0002AN-8x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:13:37 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L6J00E00EIA4U00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:13:35 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.247.236]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L6J00C32EMME470@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:13:35 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128144 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:19:20 +0200 > > >> Is there a compelling reason to still use yank/kill, instead of copy/cut/paste? > > From the Emacs manual: > > Maybe we should make a concerted effort to change the terminology. > If someone could go through the manual and docstrings to replace > yank=>paste (and kill => cut|copy), and also find new names for > variables, functions, and commands (which will need aliases so both the > new and old names work), that would be a good start. I'd be happy to > review such a patch. > > >> Why do we call the cursor the point? > > Because point is not the cursor. The cursor only shows the position > > of point in the visible windows (and on character terminals, only in > > the single selected window). We still need a term for the ``current > > position in the buffer''. > > I'm not sure that's a good reason: most other applications don't bother > with this distinction, they just call both concepts "cursor" and then > rely on context to disambiguate. So here as well, I'd be willing to > entertain the idea of changing terminology if someone were to send > a patch for it. Sorry, but I happen to think this would be a waste of our time and energy. If we have resources for improving the docs, there's a lot of much more useful jobs to be done with the manuals than rephrasing everything in terms of cut/paste etc. If someone needs a data point that terminology doesn't matter much, read the manual for Vim -- it uses non-standard terminology (including "yank", btw, and other weirdly named commands), and yet is very popular. I already wrote long ago in this thread that to make Emacs more attractive, we need to add to it hot new features that target software developers. If we do that, and do it well, terminology differences and weird keybindings will not prevent hackers to come on board, because hackers want productivity features. The sooner we understand that and start doing something towards that goal with enough developers to provide a critical mass, the sooner will Emacs begin gaining new users.