From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What improvements would be truly useful? Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 15:53:33 +0200 Message-ID: <834llpwe1u.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87inaiss6l.fsf@web.de> <6FCF6ACA-4F29-4B6B-BE9D-D7130C6E9495@gnu.org> <87fu5moe4c.fsf@web.de> <877eqyocro.fsf@web.de> <83zi3uz4nb.fsf@gnu.org> <0b1dd3fa-e0b0-ed20-a256-dd92d1c1826f@dancol.org> <8bc3c4c7-dfc7-987a-95e7-bd309e2326c6@cs.ucla.edu> <03118DC0-39DA-4AB5-980E-A33809B9A5EE@raeburn.org> <83sh9es8jw.fsf@gnu.org> <2cdaa88f-f31e-e05c-a940-d83e25c9c167@dancol.org> <87muzlt1mr.fsf@mbork.pl> <83k1upq70l.fsf@gnu.org> <87woyl8qm7.fsf@russet.org.uk> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1520603539 29562 195.159.176.226 (9 Mar 2018 13:52:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:52:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, raeburn@raeburn.org, dancol@dancol.org, rostislav.svoboda@gmail.com To: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 09 14:52:15 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1euIRS-0007W8-Pm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 14:52:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45426 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1euITQ-0004SA-FH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 08:54:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52658) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1euITF-0004QT-RW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 08:54:06 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1euITE-00013X-WB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 08:54:05 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:35641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1euISt-0000uL-8S; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 08:53:43 -0500 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1383 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1euISm-0005Er-1a; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 08:53:36 -0500 In-reply-to: <87woyl8qm7.fsf@russet.org.uk> (phillip.lord@russet.org.uk) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:223539 Archived-At: > From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) > Cc: Marcin Borkowski , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, raeburn@raeburn.org, dancol@dancol.org, rostislav.svoboda@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 10:56:00 +0000 > > > Are you saying that either of these is a WYSIWYG word processor? > > No. But, then Word or LibreOffice are not WYSIWYG either. This is just a minor semantic issue: let's assume for the purposes of the current discussion that the definition of a WYSIWYG word processor is what the Office word processors do. > Org-mode is essentially a structure first view of text. AUCTeX with > preview-latex is roughly the same thing. So, both of them have strong > aspects of modern word-processor. They both provide the final view of the document only off-line, and that is the crucial difference, for the purposes of this discussion. > If Emacs were able to turn org-mode into HTML, render that HTML and > then make changes to the text of that HTML, then you'd have something > close to the modal views. Or something like preview-latex which uses > syntax highlighting to provide the WYS aspect but allows you to turn it > on and off. Emacs is capable of displaying text with different typefaces, so it isn't clear to me why would we need to go through a translator, such as Org export or LaTeX. > How easy this would be to implement, I do not know. Emacs does not have > an MVC architecture -- text properties (i.e. visualization) are stored > directly with the contents of a buffer, so switching views is clunky or > difficult (see my own lentic.el for an example). Actually, MVC is exactly the Emacs architecture. (And text properties are stored separately from the buffer contents.) I wonder what kind of misunderstanding is at work here.