Grep Japanese characters

Grep Japanese characters

[Tak Kunihiro]

I want to grep Japanese string.  I can do it on Emacs for Mac but
cannot do it on Emacs for MS Windows.

I found that I can grep Japanese string using
c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command prompt (outside of Emacs).
However, I cannot do it using c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command
prompt by M-x shell (inside of Emacs).  I confirm that LC_ALL is set
to en_US.UTF-8 on both environments.

Can you give me a hint to grep Japanese string on Emacs for MS
Windows?



CMD> set
...
LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8
...

CMD> c:/msys64/usr/bin/cat hello.txt
Hello is こんにちは in Japanese.
Hello is bonjour in French.

CMD> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe Hello hello.txt
Hello is こんにちは in Japanese.
Hello is bonjour in French.

CMD> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe "こんにちは" hello.txt
Hello is こんにちは in Japanese.



CMD> c:/emacs-26.1/bin/runemacs -Q
M-x shell

CMD> set
...
LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8
...

CMD> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe Hello hello.txt
c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe Hello hello.txt
Hello is こんにちは in Japanese.
Hello is bonjour in French.

CMD> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe "こんにちは" hello.txt
c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe "こんにちは" hello.txt

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:02:55 +0900 (JST)
> From: Tak Kunihiro <tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp>
> Cc: tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp
> 
> I want to grep Japanese string.  I can do it on Emacs for Mac but
> cannot do it on Emacs for MS Windows.
> 
> I found that I can grep Japanese string using
> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command prompt (outside of Emacs).
> However, I cannot do it using c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command
> prompt by M-x shell (inside of Emacs).  I confirm that LC_ALL is set
> to en_US.UTF-8 on both environments.
> 
> Can you give me a hint to grep Japanese string on Emacs for MS
> Windows?

You cannot pass UTF-8 encoded parameters to sub-programs on
MS-Windows.  You can only use the encoding of your system codepage.
Sorry, it's an MS-Windows limitation.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[YUE Daian]

On 2018-07-12 05:40, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:02:55 +0900 (JST)
>> From: Tak Kunihiro <tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp>
>> Cc: tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp
>> 
>> I want to grep Japanese string.  I can do it on Emacs for Mac but
>> cannot do it on Emacs for MS Windows.
>> 
>> I found that I can grep Japanese string using
>> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command prompt (outside of Emacs).
>> However, I cannot do it using c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command
>> prompt by M-x shell (inside of Emacs).  I confirm that LC_ALL is set
>> to en_US.UTF-8 on both environments.
>> 
>> Can you give me a hint to grep Japanese string on Emacs for MS
>> Windows?
>
> You cannot pass UTF-8 encoded parameters to sub-programs on
> MS-Windows.  You can only use the encoding of your system codepage.
> Sorry, it's an MS-Windows limitation.

I remember Windows 10 has a beta option to use UTF-8 for the whole
system instead of your local encoding.

I do not know if this can help...

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Tak Kunihiro]

>>> I want to grep Japanese string.  I can do it on Emacs for Mac but
>>> cannot do it on Emacs for MS Windows.
>>>
>>> I found that I can grep Japanese string using
>>> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command prompt (outside of Emacs).
>>> However, I cannot do it using c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command
>>> prompt by M-x shell (inside of Emacs).  I confirm that LC_ALL is set
>>> to en_US.UTF-8 on both environments.
>>>
>>> Can you give me a hint to grep Japanese string on Emacs for MS
>>> Windows?
>>
>> You cannot pass UTF-8 encoded parameters to sub-programs on
>> MS-Windows.  You can only use the encoding of your system codepage.
>> Sorry, it's an MS-Windows limitation.
>
> I remember Windows 10 has a beta option to use UTF-8 for the whole
> system instead of your local encoding.

I have checked a box on a dialog by following steps and
confirmed that I can grep Japanese string.

Thank you for the hints!


Region & Language
-> Administrative language settings
-> Language for non-Unicode programs
-> Change system locale...
-> Beta: Use Unicode UTF-8 for worldwide language support

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:10:45 +0900
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp
> 
> I have checked a box on a dialog by following steps and
> confirmed that I can grep Japanese string.
> 
> Thank you for the hints!
> 
> 
> Region & Language
> -> Administrative language settings
> -> Language for non-Unicode programs
> -> Change system locale...
> -> Beta: Use Unicode UTF-8 for worldwide language support

Ah, good!  So Windows is finally moving in the right direction.

After you do the above, what values do the following
variables/functions yield, please?

  M-: w32-ansi-code-page RET
  M-: (w32-get-console-codepage) RET
  M-: (w32-get-console-output-codepage) RET

Also, if you invoke Emacs with the -nw command-line option, what do
you see when you then display the HELLO file ("C-h h")?

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Tak Kunihiro]

>> I have checked a box on a dialog by following steps and
>> confirmed that I can grep Japanese string.
>> 
>> Region & Language
>> -> Administrative language settings
>> -> Language for non-Unicode programs
>> -> Change system locale...
>> -> Beta: Use Unicode UTF-8 for worldwide language support
>
> After you do the above, what values do the following
> variables/functions yield, please?
>
>   M-: w32-ansi-code-page RET
>   M-: (w32-get-console-codepage) RET
>   M-: (w32-get-console-output-codepage) RET
>
> Also, if you invoke Emacs with the -nw command-line option, what do
> you see when you then display the HELLO file ("C-h h")?


I attach the response from Emacs with `Beta: Use Unicode UTF-8 for
worldwide language support' checked.

CMD> c:/emacs-26.1/bin/runemacs.exe -Q

  M-: w32-ansi-code-page
  --> 65001 (#o176751, #xfde9)
  
  M-: (w32-get-console-codepage) RET
  --> 65001 (#o176751, #xfde9)
  
  M-: (w32-get-console-output-codepage) RET
  --> 65001 (#o176751, #xfde9)

CMD> c:/emacs-26.1/bin/emacs.exe -nw -Q

  M-x view-hello-file
  --> Letters besides ascii are all bricks (tofu).

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa@gmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Cc: tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp
> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:36:46 +0900
> 
> CMD> c:/emacs-26.1/bin/runemacs.exe -Q
> 
>   M-: w32-ansi-code-page
>   --> 65001 (#o176751, #xfde9)
>   
>   M-: (w32-get-console-codepage) RET
>   --> 65001 (#o176751, #xfde9)
>   
>   M-: (w32-get-console-output-codepage) RET
>   --> 65001 (#o176751, #xfde9)
> 
> CMD> c:/emacs-26.1/bin/emacs.exe -nw -Q
> 
>   M-x view-hello-file
>   --> Letters besides ascii are all bricks (tofu).

Thanks.  That's expected, more or less.  The conclusion is that UTF-8
can be used as a locale's codeset (good!), but sending UTF-8 text to
the console still doesn't work well (not so good).  So if people use
this knob in Windows 10, they should arrange for console input and
output to be in some codepage other than 65001 (a.k.a. UTF-8).

It's possible that using a better font for the console, such as Lucida
Console, will at least allow you to show Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek
characters in HELLO, btw.  Not sure what will happen with characters
beyond the BMP, maybe Windows 10 has improved in that part as well.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Filipp Gunbin]

On 13/07/2018 10:21 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

[..]
> The conclusion is that UTF-8 can be used as a locale's codeset
> (good!), but sending UTF-8 text to the console still doesn't work well
> (not so good).  So if people use this knob in Windows 10, they should
> arrange for console input and output to be in some codepage other than
> 65001 (a.k.a. UTF-8).
[..]

But in message <86pnzsbnvu.fsf@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp> above it was
reported that grepping of these non-ascii chars worked from emacs, no?

And what does "using as locale's codeset" then means in your message?

I'm not a Windows user (anymore) myself, it'd be just nice to know what
is the situation on Windows.

Thanks.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:06:38 +0300
> 
> > The conclusion is that UTF-8 can be used as a locale's codeset
> > (good!), but sending UTF-8 text to the console still doesn't work well
> > (not so good).  So if people use this knob in Windows 10, they should
> > arrange for console input and output to be in some codepage other than
> > 65001 (a.k.a. UTF-8).
> [..]
> 
> But in message <86pnzsbnvu.fsf@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp> above it was
> reported that grepping of these non-ascii chars worked from emacs, no?

When you gerp from Emacs, the results of the search are not displayed
by the Windows console, they get read by Emacs and displayed by Emacs.
And (GUI) Emacs can display _any_ character supported by the fonts
installed on the systems, regardless of the codepage.  But if people
run Grep from the shell prompt, they will see unreadable output, even
on Windows 10 with that setting in effect.

> And what does "using as locale's codeset" then means in your message?

A locale's most general specification is ll_CC.ENC, where ll is the
language, CC is the country, and ENC is the encoding.  Example from
Posix systems: pr_BR.UTF-8, for Brazilian variety of Portuguese with
UTF-8 encoding.  Example from Windows: French_Canada.1252 (where 1252
is the codepage used for encoding).  The ENC part is also known as
"codeset".

More about that, for Windows in particular, here:

  https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/x99tb11d.aspx

You will see that the MS doc still says UTF-8 is not supported as the
ENC part.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Filipp Gunbin]

On 13/07/2018 17:36 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm>
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:06:38 +0300
>>
>> > The conclusion is that UTF-8 can be used as a locale's codeset
>> > (good!), but sending UTF-8 text to the console still doesn't work well
>> > (not so good).  So if people use this knob in Windows 10, they should
>> > arrange for console input and output to be in some codepage other than
>> > 65001 (a.k.a. UTF-8).
>> [..]
>>
>> But in message <86pnzsbnvu.fsf@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp> above it was
>> reported that grepping of these non-ascii chars worked from emacs, no?
>
> When you gerp from Emacs, the results of the search are not displayed
> by the Windows console, they get read by Emacs and displayed by Emacs.
> And (GUI) Emacs can display _any_ character supported by the fonts
> installed on the systems, regardless of the codepage.  But if people
> run Grep from the shell prompt, they will see unreadable output, even
> on Windows 10 with that setting in effect.
>
>> And what does "using as locale's codeset" then means in your message?
>
> A locale's most general specification is ll_CC.ENC, where ll is the
> language, CC is the country, and ENC is the encoding.  Example from
> Posix systems: pr_BR.UTF-8, for Brazilian variety of Portuguese with
> UTF-8 encoding.  Example from Windows: French_Canada.1252 (where 1252
> is the codepage used for encoding).  The ENC part is also known as
> "codeset".
>
> More about that, for Windows in particular, here:
>
>   https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/x99tb11d.aspx
>
> You will see that the MS doc still says UTF-8 is not supported as the
> ENC part.

Thanks.  I'm familiar with locale concept, but was not sure about what
"codeset" means.

I'm still a bit lost in this.  It seems that sending/receiving to/from
subprocesses works with that Win10 setting, that's why grepping from M-x
shell started to work.  Output in graphical Emacs will work if font is
ok.

But the interactions with console confuse me, I guess I need to read
more on that before I am able to ask something meaningful.  In
particular, it's unclear to me why grep outputs Japanese correctly in
the OP (with LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8), and you say that sending UTF-8 text to
console will not work.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 23:11:36 +0300
> 
> But the interactions with console confuse me, I guess I need to read
> more on that before I am able to ask something meaningful.  In
> particular, it's unclear to me why grep outputs Japanese correctly in
> the OP (with LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8), and you say that sending UTF-8 text to
> console will not work.

Once again: what worked for OP didn't involve sending matches to the
console, the matches were sent to Emacs for display.  It's the display
on the console that doesn't work with UTF-8, as the OP confirmed in
response to my question about "emacs -nw".

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[YUE Daian]

On 2018-07-12 22:10, Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I want to grep Japanese string.  I can do it on Emacs for Mac but
>>>> cannot do it on Emacs for MS Windows.
>>>>
>>>> I found that I can grep Japanese string using
>>>> c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command prompt (outside of Emacs).
>>>> However, I cannot do it using c:/msys64/usr/bin/grep.exe on command
>>>> prompt by M-x shell (inside of Emacs).  I confirm that LC_ALL is set
>>>> to en_US.UTF-8 on both environments.
>>>>
>>>> Can you give me a hint to grep Japanese string on Emacs for MS
>>>> Windows?
>>>
>>> You cannot pass UTF-8 encoded parameters to sub-programs on
>>> MS-Windows.  You can only use the encoding of your system codepage.
>>> Sorry, it's an MS-Windows limitation.
>>
>> I remember Windows 10 has a beta option to use UTF-8 for the whole
>> system instead of your local encoding.
>
> I have checked a box on a dialog by following steps and
> confirmed that I can grep Japanese string.
>
> Thank you for the hints!
>
>
> Region & Language
> -> Administrative language settings
> -> Language for non-Unicode programs
> -> Change system locale...
> -> Beta: Use Unicode UTF-8 for worldwide language support

I am glad it made sense.

Just a reminder:
If you select this button, you may find some local software that use
hard-coded encoding do not show characters correctly.

I personally do not care because Windows to me is only a game center
anyway.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: YUE Daian <sheepduke@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:05:28 +0800
> 
> > You cannot pass UTF-8 encoded parameters to sub-programs on
> > MS-Windows.  You can only use the encoding of your system codepage.
> > Sorry, it's an MS-Windows limitation.
> 
> I remember Windows 10 has a beta option to use UTF-8 for the whole
> system instead of your local encoding.

If Windows will at some point will allow using UTF-8 as the locale's
codeset, then invoking subprograms with UTF-8 encoded command-line
arguments will become possible in Emacs on Windows.  For now, the MSDN
documentation of the latest C runtime still says:

  The locale argument can take a locale name, a language string, a
  language string and country/region code, a code page, or a language
  string, country/region code, and code page. The set of available
  locale names, languages, country/region codes, and code pages includes
  all those supported by the Windows NLS API except code pages that
  require more than two bytes per character, such as UTF-7 and UTF-8. If
  you provide a code page value of UTF-7 or UTF-8, setlocale will fail,
  returning NULL.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Yuri Khan]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:41 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> You cannot pass UTF-8 encoded parameters to sub-programs on
> MS-Windows.  You can only use the encoding of your system codepage.
> Sorry, it's an MS-Windows limitation.

That’s not entirely accurate: using the CreateProcessW API, you could
pass UTF-16. However, in order to make full use of arguments passed
that way, the sub-program needs to forgo the normal “int main(int,
char**)” signature and use “int _wmain(int, wchar_t**)”, or to call
GetCommandLineW and parse the returned UTF-16 string. A sub-program
that accepts arguments via the usual ‘main’ function will be limited
to characters that are representable in the current codepage.

I do not know whether MSYS binaries do that.

Re: Grep Japanese characters

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Yuri Khan <yurivkhan@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:05:51 +0700
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:41 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> > You cannot pass UTF-8 encoded parameters to sub-programs on
> > MS-Windows.  You can only use the encoding of your system codepage.
> > Sorry, it's an MS-Windows limitation.
> 
> That’s not entirely accurate: using the CreateProcessW API, you could
> pass UTF-16. However, in order to make full use of arguments passed
> that way, the sub-program needs to forgo the normal “int main(int,
> char**)” signature and use “int _wmain(int, wchar_t**)”, or to call
> GetCommandLineW and parse the returned UTF-16 string. A sub-program
> that accepts arguments via the usual ‘main’ function will be limited
> to characters that are representable in the current codepage.

Not only does the sub-program need to use _wmain instead of main, it
must also internally use wchar_t data type instead of char for text
strings.  Ports of GNU and Unix software generally won't do that, so
passing UTF-16 encoded text to them is not really useful, with a few
very rare exceptions.