From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: More metaproblem Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:38:29 +0200 Message-ID: <83388v6hsq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20141203142859.24393.98673@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <20141203192721.GE12748@thyrsus.com> <547F6774.50700@cs.ucla.edu> <838uio5vjw.fsf@gnu.org> <20141203211447.GB15111@thyrsus.com> <871toge5zw.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417675130 22397 80.91.229.3 (4 Dec 2014 06:38:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 06:38:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 04 07:38:43 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XwQ3m-0003vz-UR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 07:38:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44693 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwQ3k-0006C6-8G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 01:38:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44124) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwQ3S-00069O-KX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 01:38:27 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwQ3O-000306-73 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 01:38:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:49517) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwQ3N-0002z0-Uc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 01:38:18 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NG100D00OZG1800@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:38:16 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NG100CZ4P3RTS30@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:38:16 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <871toge5zw.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178803 Archived-At: > From: Karl Fogel > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 16:13:55 -0600 > > "Eric S. Raymond" writes: > >For Emacs to attract new developers, its code and the culture need to > >be discoverable. As part of this, practice rules need to be *clear*, > >*documented*, and *minimal*. Right now they fail all three tests. > > +1 all over that. > > For example, as far as I can see -- and I've looked, though maybe in the > wrong places -- there's never been a permanent sign anywhere, like on a > web page, telling developers when they should commit to release branches > versus when they should commit to master (trunk). See admin/notes/repo and admin/notes/commits. What else is missing? > Sometimes trunk is locked down and most commits are supposed to go to > the current emacs-NN branch. Thats a thing of a distant past. Trunk (a.k.a. "master") is nowadays never locked, but there are (usually short) periods before a new release branch is cut, when there's a "feature freeze", i.e. commits that introduce new features should not be pushed to master. > Other times it's not locked down. And you're just supposed to know, > somehow, I guess by saving random bits of state gleaned from a > rather high-traffic mailing list. You need to read this list, yes. Emacs is not the only project that uses this practice, though. GDB is another one. Publishing such ephemeral information on the developer's list is an established practice; posting that on Web pages is IMO worse, because this kind of information quickly becomes obsolete, and Google searches will then bring wrong info to people. > Emacs is not an easy project for newcomers or drive-by contributors. Which large and complex project _is_ easy for newcomers? > (And somebody please stop me before I start ranting about debbugs as a > primary bug tracker even when email-enabled things like Redmine are > available, since it's been discussed elsewhere. Apparently for the > Emacs project in 2014, "send email" is still considered an acceptable UI > gesture for manipulating a bug ticket.) I think if you dislike so much in Emacs development practices, you should become much more active than you are, and then you maybe stand a chance to start changing all that.