From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Contributing LLVM.org patches to gud.el Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:00:30 +0200 Message-ID: <83386d92ox.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87mw4rxkzv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87y4oavxcy.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87d25juy8m.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83iofa8lu2.fsf@gnu.org> <87wq3qrvjz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1423584081 25934 80.91.229.3 (10 Feb 2015 16:01:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:01:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, eller.helmut@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 10 17:01:13 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YLDFQ-0003NE-8c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 17:01:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40446 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLDFP-00014g-M3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:01:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58311) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLDF9-00014N-Iu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:00:59 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLDF3-0004RE-Qx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:00:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:53325) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLDEw-0004PR-Si; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:00:43 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NJK00400CFNJH00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:00:41 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NJK004H1CH40SB0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:00:41 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <87wq3qrvjz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:182815 Archived-At: > From: David Kastrup > Cc: Stefan Monnier , rms@gnu.org, eller.helmut@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:59:44 +0100 > > > FWIW, I think David made a mistake when he gave up. > > Running out of motivation is not a choice. It's not an objective condition, either. > And anyway, Richard explicitly stated that he wanted lots of time > for his resentment over the discussion to abate before he would even > start discussing the issue with people he trusts. So it will be a > considerable amount of time before David even has a chance of being > informed whether his work will end up in the wastebin. That sounds > like a solid reason to rather work on something else to me. It's clearly a judgment call, not something clear-cut or carved in stone. I gave you my assessment of the decision. I don't blame anyone, least of all David himself, I just wish he would find resources to persevere. > > I faced a similar disheartening intention (for quite different, but > > still political) reasons when I worked on bidi support. I decided to > > disregard and proceed, and the result is before your eyes. > > > > There's nothing like working code to convince people. > > As far as I remember, company-mode had working code for LLVM-based > completion. So? It's working code, isn't it? Anyone can use it, can't they? > And we are currently just seeing a veto on integration of > working initial LLDB support into gud.el. Maybe I need new glasses, but I see no veto. A request to hold on is not a veto. And, FWIW, from my POV supporting LLDB is not an important issue, certainly nowhere as important as making Emacs more like modern IDEs. When LLDB gets anywhere near GDB in functionality and usability, let alone surpasses it, maybe then I might get interested. For now, it's a niche debugger, not unlike dbx. Why should we care so much if LLDB support will land today, next week, or next year? We shouldn't burn so much energy on even discussing it. > > Free Software is about freedom of developers as well. > > Not at its core. Yes, at its core: the freedom to change the code requires a developer who can actually do that. We the developers are users of that freedom just like any other user. Who do you think will be the most frequent users of an IDE-like Emacs, if not us? Who needs smart completion, refactoring, and other niceties, if not us?