From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#38051: 26.3; (elisp) `Insertion' use of verb "point" Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 22:14:33 +0200 Message-ID: <8336eyazx2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <<10c2ca80-b3d5-4efb-a2b1-5ded0cc8a14d@default>> <<874kzfyzk5.fsf@marxist.se>> <<3b0f7464-a74f-4687-b91b-b654697cc1cc@default>> <<83a796b2tx.fsf@gnu.org>> Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="266653"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: 38051@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 08 21:15:11 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAf0-0017ES-KE for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 21:15:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60022 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAez-0006UJ-75 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:15:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40170) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAeu-0006U6-20 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:15:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAet-0000PQ-1n for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:15:03 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:38853) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAes-0000PE-V2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:15:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAes-0001VU-KJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:15:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 20:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38051 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 38051-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38051.15732440915759 (code B ref 38051); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 20:15:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 38051) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Nov 2019 20:14:51 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAeg-0001Up-Qv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:14:51 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59313) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAee-0001UZ-8W for 38051@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:14:48 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54826) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAeY-0000F4-Pn; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:14:42 -0500 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3614 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iTAeY-0000IF-6p; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:14:42 -0500 In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:56:29 -0800 (PST)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:171257 Archived-At: > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:56:29 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: stefan@marxist.se, 38051@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > 1. From a user point of view (conceptual model), > > > markers _are_ objects that can be located > > > _in_ a buffer, _at_ buffer positions. > > > > That is incorrect. A marker stores a buffer and a location within > > that buffer, but it isn't itself located in a buffer. > > From a user point of view. That's the point. > That can't be "incorrect". Of course it can. And it is. > It's a question of what the user needs as a > conceptual model to work with markers (and > overlays, for that matter). Wrong conceptual models will bite you down the road. It is best to have correct conceptual models. > > Overlays are completely different beasts. > > If you say so (without any explanation of why you > think so). > > Does an overlay store a buffer and two locations > within that buffer? No. Like I said: it's a different beast. > What is it in the user-observable behavior of a > marker that requires introducing the extra > (I'd say extraneous) construct of it "pointing to" > a buffer and a position within that buffer? Convenience and clarity of description. And please, can we stop this bikeshedding? It goes nowhere.