* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating [not found] <880216814.3549587.1630711521093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> @ 2021-09-03 23:25 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-09-04 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-09-03 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 50364; +Cc: Charles Aylmer Hi, Been fighting with EDT mode configuration for a few weeks. The fundamental problem is that all the Xmodmap related instruction in https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/misc/edt.texi#n418 and the entire section from about https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/misc/edt.texi#n325 to https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/misc/edt.texi#n530 is significantly outdated, by about a whole decade. Modern Linux - and also Sun Workstations which have Gnome as desktop - supports plug-and-play keyboards and mouses with X Keyboard Extension, and would periodically reset any manually applied xmodmap settings; and also since about Gnome 3.6 (around 2010), ignores .Xmodmap . The proper way of remapping the Num_Lock key to EDT's GOLD key usage is via a custom keyboard layout with X Keyboard Extension. Failing that, the Apple family of xkb keyboard models, "Apple laptop", and "Apple Aluminium (*)", apple_laptop/applealu_ansi/applealu_iso/applealu_jis , have a definition for the Clear key at that key location. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating 2021-09-03 23:25 ` bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-09-04 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-09-04 20:51 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-10-19 14:42 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-09-04 6:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: htl10; +Cc: ca22, 50364 > Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:25:21 +0000 (UTC) > Cc: Charles Aylmer <ca22@cam.ac.uk> > From: Hin-Tak Leung via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > Been fighting with EDT mode configuration for a few weeks. > > The fundamental problem is that all the Xmodmap related instruction in > https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/misc/edt.texi#n418 > and the entire section from about > https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/misc/edt.texi#n325 > to > https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/misc/edt.texi#n530 > is significantly outdated, by about a whole decade. > > Modern Linux - and also Sun Workstations which have Gnome as desktop - supports > plug-and-play keyboards and mouses with X Keyboard Extension, and would periodically > reset any manually applied xmodmap settings; and also since about Gnome 3.6 > (around 2010), ignores .Xmodmap . > > The proper way of remapping the Num_Lock key to EDT's GOLD key usage > is via a custom keyboard layout with X Keyboard Extension. Failing that, > the Apple family of xkb keyboard models, "Apple laptop", and "Apple Aluminium (*)", > apple_laptop/applealu_ansi/applealu_iso/applealu_jis , have a definition > for the Clear key at that key location. Thanks. Would you like to write some text that explains how to achieve this on modern platforms? We could then update or augment what the manual says as appropriate. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating 2021-09-04 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-09-04 20:51 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-09-28 13:15 ` Stefan Kangas 2022-08-23 1:01 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-10-19 14:42 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 1 sibling, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-09-04 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: ca22, 50364 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2822 bytes --] On Saturday, 4 September 2021, 07:19:39 BST, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > Thanks. Would you like to write some text that explains how to > achieve this on modern platforms? We could then update or augment > what the manual says as appropriate. Yes, I could do that, when I figure out a neat way of doing it. The current EDT documentation is misleading/out-dated in two aspects: it gives the impression that ~/.Xmodmap is auto-applied when a user logs in to an X session. This file is ignored for about a decade for Gnome now, and likely KDE, too. The second matter is that even if a user manually runs "xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap", gnome-setting-daemon (and its KDE equivalent, kxkb) periodically resets any manually applied xmodmap keyboard mappings. As far as I understand it, this is driven by two modern linux usages: plug-and-play keyboards and power management, and desktop-wide international input support. Thus keyboard layouts are re-applied, whenever user plugs in new external keyboards (for laptops), screensaver/monitor sleeps, or keyboard goes to sleep and wake up. Keyboard layouts are also reset when a user explicitly choose to input non-ascii characters via switching the desktop input methods. Since modern Xorg can auto-detect unusual keyboards and already bundles 190 models and 100 layouts (on my system), it seems to be quite difficult to "only" remaps a few keys. The smallest change that is persistent is doing both: Editing /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/pc, from 23: key <NMLK> { [ Num_Lock ] }; to 23: key <NMLK> { [ Clear ] }; and append to "gsettings get org.gnome.desktop.input-sources xkb-options" (retrieving the current xkb options) with 'numpad:mac' using "gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.input-sources xkb-options" (setting it). The combination of these two effectively turns the numerical keypad of the PC keyboard to closer to how the "Apple Aluminium (*)" family of keyboards behave. This approach suffers from editing a system file (and requires admin privilege, and also needs redoing on package upgrades). There are a few alternative approaches, such as declaring new keyboard layouts (scattering a few new files across /usr/share/X11/xkb/ and editing a few existing ones, also require admin privilege) or custom scripts trigged to run on power/plug events (details of this functionality seems to have changed over the years, and flaky). So I haven't found a satisfactory answer that is simple, persistent, user-config-only without root privilege, applicable to different Linux vintage, yet. I can condense and improve the above into a patch, if you are happy to take it... Argh, there is also advice about running a script in the background which periodically runs "xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap" every 5 or 10 seconds! [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3086 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating 2021-09-04 20:51 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-09-28 13:15 ` Stefan Kangas 2022-08-23 1:01 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kangas @ 2021-09-28 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hin-Tak Leung; +Cc: ca22, 50364 Hin-Tak Leung <htl10@users.sourceforge.net> writes: > I can condense and improve the above into a patch, if you are happy to take it... It seems like you got no reply here, but to clarify, we would indeed be happy to take such a patch. Thank you for working on this. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating 2021-09-04 20:51 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-09-28 13:15 ` Stefan Kangas @ 2022-08-23 1:01 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2022-08-23 1:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hin-Tak Leung; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, ca22, 50364 Hin-Tak Leung <htl10@users.sourceforge.net> writes: > Yes, I could do that, when I figure out a neat way of doing it. > > The current EDT documentation is misleading/out-dated in two aspects: > it gives the impression that ~/.Xmodmap is auto-applied when a user logs in > to an X session. This file is ignored for about a decade for Gnome now, > and likely KDE, too. The second matter is that even if a user manually > runs "xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap", gnome-setting-daemon (and its KDE > equivalent, kxkb) periodically resets any manually applied xmodmap keyboard > mappings. > > As far as I understand it, this is driven by two modern linux usages: plug-and-play > keyboards and power management, and desktop-wide international input support. > Thus keyboard layouts are re-applied, whenever user plugs in new external > keyboards (for laptops), screensaver/monitor sleeps, or keyboard goes to sleep > and wake up. Keyboard layouts are also reset when a user explicitly choose > to input non-ascii characters via switching the desktop input methods. > > Since modern Xorg can auto-detect unusual keyboards and already bundles > 190 models and 100 layouts (on my system), it seems to be quite difficult to > "only" remaps a few keys. > > The smallest change that is persistent is doing both: > > Editing /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/pc, from > 23: key <NMLK> { [ Num_Lock ] }; > to > 23: key <NMLK> { [ Clear ] }; > > and append to "gsettings get org.gnome.desktop.input-sources xkb-options" (retrieving the current xkb options) > with 'numpad:mac' using "gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.input-sources xkb-options" (setting it). > > The combination of these two effectively turns the numerical keypad of the PC keyboard > to closer to how the "Apple Aluminium (*)" family of keyboards behave. > > This approach suffers from editing a system file (and requires admin privilege, and > also needs redoing on package upgrades). > > There are a few alternative approaches, such as declaring new keyboard layouts > (scattering a few new files across /usr/share/X11/xkb/ and editing a few existing > ones, also require admin privilege) or custom scripts trigged to run on power/plug > events (details of this functionality seems to have changed over the years, and > flaky). So I haven't found a satisfactory answer that is simple, persistent, > user-config-only without root privilege, applicable to different Linux vintage, yet. > > I can condense and improve the above into a patch, if you are happy to take it... > > Argh, there is also advice about running a script in the background which > periodically runs "xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap" every 5 or 10 seconds! Please keep the previous method documented. I don't use plug-and-play keyboards (indeed PS/2 is not even safe to hotplug), and in addition to that, Emacs runs on ancient X servers all the way back to the original X11R6 sample server. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating 2021-09-04 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-09-04 20:51 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-10-19 14:42 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-10-19 16:09 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-08-22 20:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-10-19 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: ca22, 50364 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 426 bytes --] On Saturday, 4 September 2021, 07:19:39 BST, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > Thanks. Would you like to write some text that explains how to > achieve this on modern platforms? We could then update or augment > what the manual says as appropriate. I should say that I intend to come back to this, and submit a patch/diff to the documentation when I find the time to do so. Hopefully before Christmas... [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 505 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating 2021-10-19 14:42 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors @ 2021-10-19 16:09 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-08-22 20:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-10-19 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: htl10; +Cc: ca22, 50364 > Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:42:09 +0000 (UTC) > From: Hin-Tak Leung <htl10@users.sourceforge.net> > Cc: 50364@debbugs.gnu.org, ca22@cam.ac.uk > > On Saturday, 4 September 2021, 07:19:39 BST, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > > Thanks. Would you like to write some text that explains how to > > achieve this on modern platforms? We could then update or augment > > what the manual says as appropriate. > > I should say that I intend to come back to this, and submit a patch/diff to the documentation when I find the > time to do so. Hopefully before Christmas... Thanks in advance. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating 2021-10-19 14:42 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-10-19 16:09 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-08-22 20:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2022-08-22 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hin-Tak Leung; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, ca22, 50364 Hin-Tak Leung <htl10@users.sourceforge.net> writes: > > On Saturday, 4 September 2021, 07:19:39 BST, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > >> Thanks. Would you like to write some text that explains how to >> achieve this on modern platforms? We could then update or augment >> what the manual says as appropriate. > > I should say that I intend to come back to this, and submit a patch/diff to the > documentation when I find the time to do so. Hopefully before Christmas... This was more than half a year ago -- did you make any progress here? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-08-23 1:01 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <880216814.3549587.1630711521093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> 2021-09-03 23:25 ` bug#50364: 27.2; EDT mode Xmodmap related documentation needs updating Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-09-04 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2021-09-04 20:51 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-09-28 13:15 ` Stefan Kangas 2022-08-23 1:01 ` Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-10-19 14:42 ` Hin-Tak Leung via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors 2021-10-19 16:09 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-08-22 20:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
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