From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful, a simple solution Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 22:01:32 +0200 Message-ID: <8335odgg9v.fsf@gnu.org> References: <875ytag0hb.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgqmd5np.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <83wnlqk3rn.fsf@gnu.org> <72dd5c2a-42c7-b12e-05ed-e93adbd89727@gmail.com> <83ilxajyhw.fsf@gnu.org> <83fssejxf8.fsf@gnu.org> <835ytajsv2.fsf@gnu.org> <831r3yjqo9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v91aibe7.fsf@gnu.org> <87o872s0wf.fsf_-_@db48x.net> <83lf25gm1j.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee7xgio2.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15054"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: db48x@db48x.net, cpitclaudel@gmail.com, stefan@marxist.se, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Yuri Khan Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 03 21:03:09 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1miMTV-0003hZ-C9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 21:03:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39040 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1miMTT-00018s-LY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 16:03:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54814) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1miMS0-000864-L0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 16:01:36 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39512) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1miMRz-00004w-63; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 16:01:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=xVQIUg2DUzU9bIGMy7CcdLcvAE7pCWrD5YxNIsGa2Y8=; b=ry0t5sZ/i0IWPFAISzRB HCGjw/Ntt8xddOUUeTzv4dfBSL/8M18OfyCMeFK2tHn7naxVzrnaIsxWTng+4kCWMDBtHzRO+gk2t pgSUcEEzrdG52cuFkcOVQF3t2hABrFMW2uVaDTlRa/qVOys9wPviTeXYhJc3exZzKxoMwsV9HoFqv /KB/XNM1x9NLu2V5WWtj9jeG4rA9WQwxGACVWFMp10R9GOXv2PJ/BSuttrbCKsG7LqW0/p0AMlo1h Yu/5tHfhNRozniicn2FGDoJ5lMdllIvENUmQWbSH8nEHzlOm1a4YqhXwc9fLZEVVpqVJHi7MqEL4E KiA1zZiFmMeG4g==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4946 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1miMRy-0004lz-N0; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 16:01:35 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Yuri Khan on Thu, 4 Nov 2021 02:35:04 +0700) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:278622 Archived-At: > From: Yuri Khan > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 02:35:04 +0700 > Cc: Daniel Brooks , Clément Pit-Claudel , > Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , > Emacs developers > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 at 02:09, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Do you read Hebrew? > > No. I just imagine how I’d perceive the text if I could. IME, imagination doesn't help here. > > > One does not only want to highlight, but also to actually see and > > > distinguish certain characters > > > > What for? The absolute majority of people won't have any idea what is > > the effect of each of these controls, and how it differs from others. > > Even I many times need to talk myself through their effect on display. > > The UBA spec weighs in at more than 30 pages of highly technical text, > > and I don't expect people to memorize it by heart. > > Most people, when in the reader role, probably won’t and shouldn’t have to. > > If I’m editing a text in a bidi language, though, I am expected to use > format control characters Actually, it is quite rare to need those controls. Most people who write RTL scripts every day don't even know those controls exist. > and so I must know where they are or are not. Then what we have in glyphless-char-display-control is better, and doesn't need any changes, just customization of format-control to display as acronyms. Consider: . you get these characters stand out . they stand out, but in a somewhat subtle way, using a face that dims them . you clearly and unequivocally see which character is which -- no need to guess or remember what exactly does this or that arrow mean > In the same vein, when I edit a program expected to conform to a > coding style, I must know where spaces and tabs are, so I do not > introduce whitespace-only changes or trailing blanks and keep > indentation consistent. Or when I edit anything that will end up as a > web page I want to know which spaces and hyphens are non-breaking, so > the page will wrap correctly no matter how the user resizes their > window and/or zooms the page. (No, I do not trust tools to do these > things right; if they could, we would not need format control > characters at all. I like tools to let me check what they did and > correct if necessary.) You seem to have some very unusual needs. I find it hard to believe that they are representative.