From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs packages, GitHub and software freedom Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 19:24:53 +0300 Message-ID: <8335fe6wfe.fsf@gnu.org> References: <875yka4b91.fsf@disroot.org> <87y1x62vic.fsf@rabkins.net> <87v8sa2p26.fsf@disroot.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8701"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: bozhidar@batsov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Akib Azmain Turja Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 06 18:26:40 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o97rM-000263-Mv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 18:26:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32820 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o97rL-0007JE-IR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 12:26:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45024) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o97pk-0006EE-1a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 12:25:00 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50360) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o97pj-0002tk-Gi; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 12:24:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=u6ah4721TQhM+8J2cmE999pHf51QQglbk1joQFXplDM=; b=J/HyaulmSU/V NOvtO+V/OnoBqNgRv1+DZgMmpMdLOkC2AidQPogdgR02pKhQSMl3xi8SZHpGLtrJ/8cqgudQHMDeq k1x3Byv83aS+ssPs1K9stRUcaJIzKaFkHwwfvjhLb60SK57p/IN27Bp5a51jW71Us2w9WRP3BOUlj NAUH9zwnipOK8aOaKszWZcketXGTAJ+UmTJIfuzRUxBOI9ioJkDFKLDs1sQA+exc3gRMSMRlN6WiF 18Bj108ieWNLowxsw2iONPFsL570KfjZLEpRxw1uaZldFb4Ws7RbAbO04PKDoNfc1hVvwWnTlTvsb xAMn55SUc/GBhF6X+ZhV0g==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2457 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o97pi-0005nz-Uu; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 12:24:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87v8sa2p26.fsf@disroot.org> (message from Akib Azmain Turja on Wed, 06 Jul 2022 22:17:37 +0600) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291907 Archived-At: > From: Akib Azmain Turja > Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 22:17:37 +0600 > > "Bozhidar Batsov" writes: > > > I think that's a very binary view of GitHub - it might be non-free, > > but given the huge community it has amassed, it's almost suicidal for > > projects to leave it, as they'd be reducing their contributor-base > > significantly. Projects that are hosted outside of GitHub get way > > less contributions and I don't think the Emacs users would benefit > > from this. I know that the people in FSF care a lot about freedom, but > > I care more about building the best Emacs packages possible, even I > > have to make some ideological compromises from time to time. > > This looks similar to saying, "It's suicidal to not use Copilot, because > without it you have to do the programming yourself and decrease your > productivity." > > Emacs, GCC, Guix, EMMS and many other projects use Savannah, and there's > thousands of other popular projects, including some of the most > successful ones, that are not using GitHub. Are they falling behind? > > Your statement is contradicting your own blog post: "Firefox is the Only > Alternative".[1] > > However, I must agree that projects on GitHub gets more activity. But > that's because most of the developers use (i.e. used by) that. And > that's why more people join GitHub, they are forced. We must break this > cycle. > > > Love it or hate it, GitHub helped a lot for the revival of the Emacs > > package ecosystem. Especially when you compare this to the days of > > EmacsWiki and SourceForge. > > Just like saying, "Windows has made using a computer easy, so I won't > discourage people from using it." > > > I wouldn't take any steps to discourage package maintainers from > > using it. > > This way you are just worsening the situation. (But you obviously have > the freedom to do that.) To increase the "contributor-base" outside > GitHub, we have to convince maintainers to move away from GitHub. Guys, this is quickly becoming off topic here. Although the Subject says "Emacs packages", the discussion has long ago ceased to be about that, and you are now discussing GitHub, SourceForge, Savannah hosting, etc. Would you mind taking this to emacs-tangents? Thanks.