From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:44:03 +0300 Message-ID: <831ux6cv5o.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20110731.082721.451360942.wl@gnu.org> <20110731.085115.40009301.wl@gnu.org> <877h6yanje.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <878vre95g3.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87fwlm7fam.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87bowa7dza.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <877h6y7chn.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1312127121 27041 80.91.229.12 (31 Jul 2011 15:45:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 15:45:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 31 17:45:18 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYCb-0006XN-3J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 17:45:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50184 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYCa-0001IM-Ma for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:45:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60632) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYCX-0001G1-3X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:45:14 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYCV-0001xE-1v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:45:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:52217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYCT-0001vq-EH; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:45:09 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LP700L00FKD2300@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:45:07 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.48.51]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LP700KFWFR68XH0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:45:07 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <877h6y7chn.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:142586 Archived-At: > From: David Kastrup > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:26:12 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: David Kastrup > >> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 15:54:01 +0200 > >> > >> I repeat: we are currently talking about the default of > >> bidi-paragraph-direction which Eli argues should be nil in all modes > >> (not just text-mode derived ones) that don't explicitly override it. > > > > I never said that. I just mentioned that as a possible solution. > > There were explicit plans discussed for making a buffer-name list where > a nil default would get overriden. That was one idea, yes. It still is, and IMO should be considered. > I consider that approach a non-starter. Or rather a non-finisher. Look, you only learned about this issue this morning. I don't think it's wise to make up our minds about the best solution after so little thought. I think we need more data points and more rational discussions of the various aspects of this. I would also like to hear at least one other serious user of R2L scripts. This is an important usability issue, it shouldn't be decided on a knee-jerk basis. > >> There are many modes in Emacs that are doing some sort of tabular > >> display, and flipping some vertical areas of the display horizontally > >> around depending on the directionality of the first explicit character > >> is going to make it _harder_, not easier for people trying to work with > >> bidi content to get sensible results. > > > > Which modes are you talking about, specifically? > > dired, buffer-list, ses Dired is not affected, as the first character is always strong L. Buffer-list already sets bidi-paragraph-direction to left-to-right. As for SES Mode, I couldn't get it to display R2L characters, probably because I don't know anything about SES, and couldn't find any docs. (It looks like it uses symbols instead of strings?) If someone can show a recipe for doing that, I will look into it. > lots of things. Basically almost everything > that one likes using fixed-width fonts for (or which uses alignment > properties in order to still look good with variable-pitch fonts) would > likely get awkward with nil bidi-paragraph-direction. I think we should raise and discuss specific examples. There's no ideology here, just pragmatic choices, so we should study several data points to see which alternative is better.