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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Move to a cadence release model?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:11:54 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <831tbxn5id.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJnXXogfOJEO3fbiVnE-v3q_KAM71wO_YUw7NBehwTE4S1SMsQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 08:57:07 -0500
> From: John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org>
> 
> With a new master at the helm and various changes being contemplated I would
> like to see some discussion of moving to a cadence release model.
> 
> I have been impressed with open source projects that have made the
> change.

Which ones?

> I am now employed at Mathworks which ships mission critical software
> to very large enterprise customers on a 6 month cadence.
> 
> The biggest shift I see is away from wondering when the correct collection of
> features, bug fixes, whatever have been accumulated to whether those that have
> been accumulated are individually sufficiently cooked to ship. Developers feel
> less urge to squeeze a not fully baked feature into the current release when
> they can count on the next opportunity being only a cadence interval in the
> future.

AFAIK, cadence release model requires development that is planned in
advance, and then actively managed to make sure the features planned
for the next release are ready on time.

I don't know how things work at Mathworks, but I'm guessing there are
staff and processes in place to enable that.  There's probably someone
whose job is to collect proposals for new features, either from users,
or from developers, or from significant improvements in relevant
algorithms, etc.  Then there's a process that distills these proposals
into requirements for new features, prioritizes those requirements,
and decides on the schedule they will be implemented.  Then these
plans are given to developers, and there are procedures that manage
the development; e.g., if it turns out there's not enough manpower,
someone goes out and hires some more, or takes other managerial
actions.  This management requires, among other things, continuous
collection of status of each developer and tight control of their
advances.  Last, but not least, you have a known number of man-months
per month at your disposal, people who work day in and day out, which
allows reasonably accurate estimations of when each feature can be
ready to ship.

Is the above anywhere close to what happens at Mathworks?  If not,
perhaps you could describe the process that supports your cadence
model.  Because I don't know how it can be done without something like
that.

Cadence model can also work for FLOSS projects, provided that the
development team can count on their resources to enable a steady
stream of improvements.  E.g., there are projects where the core
developers get paid to work on the otherwise Free Software package
(GDB is one such package, but even GDB doesn't always succeed to
release according to plan).

And maybe there are other arrangements that might enable cadence.  The
key is the ability of the project leadership to ensure steady flow of
improvements and new features.  Without that, cadence model will
simply not work, because it makes very little sense to take a snapshot
of the main development branch at some arbitrary point in time and
declare it to be the future release.

Now, we don't have any of that in Emacs.  Some of what I mentioned
above might be possible, if we find the right people to do the job.
Other parts are IMO impossible even in principle: e.g., who of us
could commit to some minimal amount of hours he/she can work on Emacs
each day?  Without such a basic prerequisite, how could anyone plan
ahead Emacs development and ensure that the next release will be
meaningful to our users?

And one more thing, about the "next opportunity": this only works if
that opportunity is close.  If the next major Emacs release is 3 years
away, no one will want to wait, and it will be unreasonable for us to
ask them to wait.  It is much more reasonable for _us_ to wait for a
few weeks, and allow that feature to be finished in time for the
release.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2015-11-10 17:11 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 139+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-11-10 13:57 Move to a cadence release model? John Yates
2015-11-10 14:28 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-10 16:42   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-10 17:03     ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11  0:17       ` Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Stephen Leake
2015-11-11  0:24         ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11  3:45         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 10:45           ` Stephen Leake
2015-11-11 15:43             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 20:39               ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: " Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-11 20:50                 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley
2015-11-11 21:03                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-11 21:06                     ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11 21:14                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 21:10                 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 21:15                   ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley
2015-11-11 21:27                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 21:23                   ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-11 21:30                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 21:31                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-11 21:42                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 21:54                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-11 23:06               ` bug policy (was Re: Release process) Stephen Leake
2015-11-12 16:12                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-12 16:39                   ` John Wiegley
2015-11-12 17:36                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-12 17:50                       ` John Wiegley
2015-11-12 18:04                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 16:39             ` Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) John Wiegley
2015-11-12  8:19               ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-17  0:09                 ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-12  8:15             ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-10 14:32 ` Move to a cadence release model? Alan Mackenzie
2015-11-10 17:13   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-10 17:11 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2015-11-10 17:37   ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-11-10 17:44     ` Automate Emacs UI testing? (was: Move to a cadence release model?) John Wiegley
2015-11-10 18:01       ` Automate Emacs UI testing? Ashton Kemerling
2015-11-10 18:02       ` Automate Emacs UI testing? (was: Move to a cadence release model?) Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-10 19:16       ` Automate Emacs UI testing? joakim
2015-11-10 19:37         ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11 16:59         ` Richard Stallman
2015-11-11 17:18           ` joakim
2015-11-11 23:27             ` Richard Stallman
2015-11-12  2:26               ` official Emacs Docker image (was: Automate Emacs UI testing?) Ted Zlatanov
2015-11-12 15:49                 ` official Emacs Docker image Nic Ferrier
2015-11-12 21:01                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2015-11-12 22:31                 ` official Emacs Docker image (was: Automate Emacs UI testing?) Richard Stallman
2015-11-12 23:32                   ` official Emacs Docker image joakim
2016-07-06 15:22                   ` Ted Zlatanov
2016-07-07 21:56                     ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-08 13:36                       ` Ted Zlatanov
2016-07-09 16:54                         ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-09 23:04                           ` Ted Zlatanov
2016-07-10 14:25                             ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-12 22:45                             ` John Wiegley
2016-07-13 13:12                               ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-13 16:34                                 ` John Wiegley
2016-12-30  0:10                                   ` Richard Stallman
2016-12-30  0:53                                     ` John Wiegley
2016-12-30 21:36                                       ` Richard Stallman
2016-12-30 22:01                                         ` joakim
2016-12-30 22:08                                         ` John Wiegley
2016-12-31 18:25                                           ` Richard Stallman
2017-01-27 14:56                                             ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-01-27 19:45                                               ` Filipe Silva
2017-01-30 14:36                                                 ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-01-30 17:10                                                 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2017-01-30 17:44                                                   ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-01-31  0:14                                                     ` Filipe Silva
2017-01-31 14:32                                                       ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-02-01  3:03                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-01 15:25                                                           ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-02-02  2:53                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-02  5:13                                                               ` Mike Gerwitz
2017-02-02 14:21                                                               ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-02-03  7:00                                                                 ` Stefan Reichör
2017-02-03 11:18                                                                   ` Filipe Silva
2017-02-04  2:56                                                                     ` Mike Gerwitz
2017-02-03 13:45                                                                   ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-02-03 21:59                                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-03 23:38                                                                       ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-02-03 23:54                                                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2017-02-04  0:37                                                                           ` Filipe Silva
2017-02-04  1:12                                                                             ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2017-02-04  1:32                                                                               ` Filipe Silva
2017-02-04 23:52                                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-05  0:24                                                                                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2017-02-04 23:54                                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-04  3:11                                                                         ` Mike Gerwitz
2017-02-04  4:13                                                                           ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-02-04  4:47                                                                             ` Mike Gerwitz
2017-02-06 10:49                                                                               ` Giuseppe Scrivano
2017-02-13  8:37                                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-13  9:55                                                                                   ` Giuseppe Scrivano
2017-02-14  0:48                                                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-14  2:07                                                                                       ` Mike Gerwitz
2017-02-14  2:04                                                                                 ` Mike Gerwitz
2017-02-04 23:54                                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-05  0:47                                                                               ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-02-04 23:48                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2017-01-28  2:18                                               ` Richard Stallman
2017-02-21 15:01                                               ` Philippe Vaucher
2017-03-02 15:03                                                 ` Ted Zlatanov
2017-03-03 10:09                                                   ` Philippe Vaucher
2017-03-03 10:15                                                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2017-03-08 20:30                                                       ` Philippe Vaucher
2017-03-13 10:03                                                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2018-04-04 18:33                                                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2016-12-31 22:04                                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2017-01-01  5:39                                           ` Elias Mårtenson
2017-01-01  9:03                                             ` Ricardo Wurmus
2017-01-01 10:15                                               ` Elias Mårtenson
2017-01-06 15:56                                                 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2017-01-07 23:19                                                   ` Philippe Vaucher
2016-12-31  1:22                                       ` Yann Hodique
2016-12-31  2:08                                         ` John Wiegley
2017-01-28 11:06                                       ` Alex Bennée
2016-12-31 10:11                                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2016-07-13 14:41                               ` Ted Zlatanov
2015-11-12 11:36         ` Automate Emacs UI testing? Mathieu Lirzin
2015-11-12 11:43           ` joakim
2015-11-10 18:20 ` Move to a cadence release model? Richard Stallman
2015-11-10 23:50   ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-10 23:58     ` John Wiegley
2015-11-11  1:55       ` John Yates
2015-11-11  9:02         ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-11 15:37         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-12 22:35         ` Richard Stallman
2015-11-11 15:49       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-12 11:27         ` Stelian Iancu
2015-11-12 16:22           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-12 16:44             ` Stelian Iancu
2015-11-12 16:57               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-11 15:48     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-12  7:23       ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-12  7:37         ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-11-12 16:15         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-20  3:02 ` Stefan Monnier

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