From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs learning curve Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:48:02 -0700 Message-ID: <81A760E619C64426AEA8EF70A3A8A783@us.oracle.com> References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278956919 28677 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2010 17:48:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:48:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: levelhalom@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: , "'Lennart Borgman'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 12 19:48:36 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYN7K-0000W0-Hv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:48:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43299 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYN7J-00016v-Vx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:48:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=38123 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYN7B-00014U-N8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:48:28 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYN7A-00070a-5h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:48:25 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:32316) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYN79-00070S-U6; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:48:24 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o6CHmJsj011702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:48:21 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6CHCdFJ027196; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:48:18 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt019.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 419240031278956884; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:48:04 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:48:04 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acsh4vXH4h16dRkLRBSyoz2D8h9MhAAAEoXA In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4C3B5563.00E4:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127114 Archived-At: > > What words you use won't hinder that. You will always encounter > > new definitions for words, if one goes about renaming everything > > to what is currently popular it will only cause mass confusion. > > The words matter since it raises complexity to use > unfamiliar words. > > Recently I've started using Eclipse as part of my job, and it uses > several words whos definition I'm not familiar with; for example view, > perspective and workspace. I've used Eclipse daily now for four > months, and the terminology still doesn't stick for me. Does this > make Eclipse harder to use? Not at all. Does it make it more complex? > Not really. They are just words, with some meaning. Yes, words matter. Yes, we should keep an eye out for whatever might help users use Emacs better. But no, choice of words is not what is _most_ important. If the features that people need are there, the word will spread and people will learn to use it. IOW, what you said is right on. Obviously, there is no reason to choose words perversely (e.g. use "red" when we mean green). Or use words sloppily (e.g. sometimes use "red" for green and sometimes use "green" for green). And obviously we should make both the UI and the doc as clear and easy to discover and use as possible. But if Emacs has a killer mousetrap then users _will_ find and use it. Same for Eclipse or Textmate or any other tool. Improving Emacs had better start by improving what it can do and how you can do it, not just by the words used to describe that. And yes, I'm someone who does care about the words very much - more than most people. The better the product, especially its user interface, the less doc is important and necessary to fill the gap and explain the product. It does not matter whether it's a toaster or a software app. Analogy (not really the same thing, but it is suggestive): Remember those experiments where people put on special glasses that flip their vision vertically - everything looks upside down. In a relatively short time their brains adapt completely, so they actually see everything rightside up. http://www.graphpaper.com/2007/10-19_the-user-experience-flip-mode http://wearcam.org/tetherless/node4.html