Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

[Glenn Morris]

Hello verilog and vhdl mode maintainers,

Recently I've been trying to keep the version of these modes in Emacs
up-to-date with your versions. I'd prefer not to keep doing this (I don't
actually use either mode).

I think a much better solution for everybody would be to move both these
packages to elpa.gnu.org. If you are not familiar with this, it is a
gnu.org package repository for Emacs lisp files. Other people on this
list know much more about it than I do, and can hopefully ask any
questions you might have.

One of the main advantages is that the files can be updated on your own
schedule, independent of the Emacs release cycle. This should make the
statement on http://www.veripool.org/projects/verilog-mode/wiki/Installing
about the Emacs version lagging the external version "by months to
years" a thing of the past! :)

Ideally, you would update the elpa.gnu.org versions yourselves.
It's essentially just a git repository. I believe there is some way to
add external branches; again, others can say more about this and the
best way to do it. I see verilog mode already use git. vhdl mode seems
to have no public VCS, which makes merging less than fun. Perhaps
elpa.gnu.org could be that VCS.

Anyway, regardless of the details, I think it's The Right Thing to Do.

Re: Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

[Glenn Morris]

PS ideally there would be only one version of each mode.
Currently the Emacs and external versions differ, I think.
Coming up with a single version would be the only non-trivial bit of the
change. (Hopefully it would be more sophisticated than simply using one
of the existing versions as-is and discarding the other.)

Re: Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

[Wilson Snyder]

Thanks for your suggestion to put verilog-mode into ELPA (I
can't speak for vhdl-mode).

I'll look into ELPA, it's certainly been many years since I
last considered it and it has improved massively.

BTW the only intentional difference between verilog-mode on
the veripool.org website and that in GNU Emacs is the
version number.  Any other differences are squashed with
occasional merges; I merge Emacs trunk changes generally
within a few days, and for merges into trunk your work is
much appreciated.

However it's not clear to me how ELPA helps development this
as there would still two repos...

How does moving to ELPA simplify the process of merging the
package into Emacs trunk, is it scriped or something?
Likewise how do those edits made to the package in Emacs
trunk get back into the ELPA version?  Feel free to just
point me to some FAQ about this if there is one.

Thanks


Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

...
>I think a much better solution for everybody would be to move both these
>packages to elpa.gnu.org. If you are not familiar with this, it is a
>gnu.org package repository for Emacs lisp files. Other people on this
>list know much more about it than I do, and can hopefully ask any
>questions you might have.
...

Re: Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

[Stefan Monnier]

> However it's not clear to me how ELPA helps development this
> as there would still two repos...

That would be up to you (you could use the elpa.git repository as the main
development repository), but yes there might still be two repository.

> How does moving to ELPA simplify the process of merging the
> package into Emacs trunk, is it scriped or something?

Not sure.  It depends on what are the reasons why you currently don't
update the Emacs code yourself (and have Glenn do it instead).

> Likewise how do those edits made to the package in Emacs
> trunk get back into the ELPA version?

I think Glenn's suggestion would be to move those modes out of Emacs
proper and have them be in elpa.git *instead*.


        Stefan

Re: Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

[Wilson Snyder]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> How does moving to ELPA simplify the process of merging the
>> package into Emacs trunk, is it scriped or something?
>
>Not sure.  It depends on what are the reasons why you currently don't
>update the Emacs code yourself (and have Glenn do it instead).

I'd be perfectly glad to update the trunk myself - I was
never asked, and never asked myself having perhaps
mis-assuming commit rights were limited.

>> Likewise how do those edits made to the package in Emacs
>> trunk get back into the ELPA version?
>
>I think Glenn's suggestion would be to move those modes out of Emacs
>proper and have them be in elpa.git *instead*.

IMO having it installed "out of the box" is in the best
interest of both the users and myself.

Before verilog-mode joined Emacs proper I would get a flood
of install requests every semester, corresponding to when
college classes started and the professors would have their
students start their first Verilog projects.  The rate of my
giving install help is now nearly zero, and those with
problems are generally fairly sophisticated users.

BTW most of those students have have never used Emacs, so
even a one-command setup requirement is not desirable; it
should "just work".  (Even if the version of verilog-mode is
not the most recent - generally only advanced users care
about the most recent features.)

Re: Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Not sure.  It depends on what are the reasons why you currently don't
>> update the Emacs code yourself (and have Glenn do it instead).
> I'd be perfectly glad to update the trunk myself - I was
> never asked, and never asked myself having perhaps
> mis-assuming commit rights were limited.

Great: we'd be happy to give you write access to you can update the
code directly.  Please request membership in the "emacs" group from your
savannah account.

>> I think Glenn's suggestion would be to move those modes out of Emacs
>> proper and have them be in elpa.git *instead*.
> IMO having it installed "out of the box" is in the best
> interest of both the users and myself.

Of course.  For Emacs-25, I hope to have a system in place so that the
Emacs tarball includes some GNU ELPA packages, so once that's in place,
being in GNU ELPA won't necessarily imply "not installed out of the box".

> Before verilog-mode joined Emacs proper I would get a flood
> of install requests every semester, corresponding to when
> college classes started and the professors would have their
> students start their first Verilog projects.

Do note that with ELPA, installation of packages is made a lot simpler:
no need to edit your .emacs file, for example.

> BTW most of those students have have never used Emacs, so
> even a one-command setup requirement is not desirable; it
> should "just work".

Of course (I should know: I use lmc.el in one of the intro courses to
CS, so 99% of the students have never heard of Emacs and they have to
install both Emacs and lmc.el to get started).

> (Even if the version of verilog-mode is not the most recent -
> generally only advanced users care about the most recent features.)

Indeed, the version that comes with Emacs was "start of the art" not
that long ago.


        Stefan

Re: Move verilog-mode and vhdl-mode to elpa.gnu.org

[Glenn Morris]

Wilson Snyder wrote:

> BTW the only intentional difference between verilog-mode on the
> veripool.org website and that in GNU Emacs is the version number.

True, I didn't actually look at the diff. :)

> However it's not clear to me how ELPA helps development this
> as there would still two repos...

Well, if something is in Emacs, and you also want to release it
independently, then you need a separate repo, unless you want to be tied
to the Emacs release schedule. Whereas with elpa.gnu.org, you can set
your own schedule.

Or let me put it this way: why is verilog-mode currently developed in a
separate repo, rather than just within the Emacs one?

> How does moving to ELPA simplify the process of merging the
> package into Emacs trunk, is it scriped or something?

Not scripted, but I thought elpa.gnu.org could just use external
branches (?), like it currently does with eg AUCTeX (?). I'm unclear on
the details, hopefully someone else can fill them in. Oh, you said
merging into trunk. There would be no version in Emacs trunk, it would
be just in elpa.gnu.org.

I think modes like verilog and vhdl that are

1) currently developed externally to Emacs
2) only relevant to a well-defined subset of Emacs users
3) don't have other parts of Emacs depending on them

are the poster children to move to elpa.gnu.org.

But, it's your call.

AFAIK, no-one is working on Stefan's request for a way to bundle elpa
packages with future Emacs releases, which sounds like it might be a
blocker for you wrt moving verilog to elpa.gnu.org.