Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

What is the procedure for adding colour to inserted text `(insert text)` in a buffer when font-lock is disabled, like in fundamental-mode.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 12:50 AM, Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> wrote:


> What is the procedure for adding colour to inserted text `(insert text)` in a buffer when font-lock is disabled, like in fundamental-mode.
>

From what I understand, when font-lock-mode is enabled, it takes over the face property but provides an alias property - font-lock-face.  The font-lock-face property bypasses font-lock to allow coloured text.

Really weird stuff because if you want to allow someone to specify face property, just allow them to specify it.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 01:46:18 +0000
> From: Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Heime via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> >From what I understand, when font-lock-mode is enabled, it takes over the face property but provides an alias property - font-lock-face.  The font-lock-face property bypasses font-lock to allow coloured text.
> 
> Really weird stuff because if you want to allow someone to specify face property, just allow them to specify it.

What is weird about it?  font-lock-mode places face properties
according to the mode's definitions, so it will overwrite any face
properties you put manually.  Thus the need to use a different
property, which font-lock-mode doesn't control.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 7:09 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 01:46:18 +0000
> > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Heime via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > From what I understand, when font-lock-mode is enabled, it takes over the face property but provides an alias property - font-lock-face. The font-lock-face property bypasses font-lock to allow coloured text.
> > 
> > Really weird stuff because if you want to allow someone to specify face property, just allow them to specify it.
> 
> 
> What is weird about it? font-lock-mode places face properties
> according to the mode's definitions, so it will overwrite any face
> properties you put manually. Thus the need to use a different
> property, which font-lock-mode doesn't control.

But them when a user wants to introduce some text with some properties (e.g. colour), what is supposed to do.  

--------

Would you expect someone to use font-lock-face when font-lock is enabled

(propertize "G" 'font-lock-face '(:foreground "green"))

--------

And use 

(propertize "G" 'face '(:foreground "green"))

when font lock is disabled.

--------

Why places face properties according to the mode's definitions but not allow us to change the properties of inserted text, when we can do that anyway?

After calling a particular mode definitions, I should be able te change properties rather than having a lock.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 7:09 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 01:46:18 +0000
> > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Heime via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > From what I understand, when font-lock-mode is enabled, it takes over the face property but provides an alias property - font-lock-face. The font-lock-face property bypasses font-lock to allow coloured text.
> > 
> > Really weird stuff because if you want to allow someone to specify face property, just allow them to specify it.
> 
> 
> What is weird about it? font-lock-mode places face properties
> according to the mode's definitions, so it will overwrite any face
> properties you put manually. Thus the need to use a different
> property, which font-lock-mode doesn't control.

If I  want to use and enforce colour property, could there be a function that sets the colour irrpespective of whether font-lock is "on" or "off" ?

Perhaps I should avoid using fundamental-mode as a useful mode to work with.  Is it a rule that when a new buffer is made, it goes into fundamental-mode where font-lock is off ?

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 08:09:08 +0000
> From: Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > What is weird about it? font-lock-mode places face properties
> > according to the mode's definitions, so it will overwrite any face
> > properties you put manually. Thus the need to use a different
> > property, which font-lock-mode doesn't control.
> 
> But them when a user wants to introduce some text with some properties (e.g. colour), what is supposed to do.  

Users aren't supposed to introduce text properties, except via Lisp
programs.

> Would you expect someone to use font-lock-face when font-lock is enabled
> 
> (propertize "G" 'font-lock-face '(:foreground "green"))
> 
> --------
> 
> And use 
> 
> (propertize "G" 'face '(:foreground "green"))
> 
> when font lock is disabled.

The Lisp program which allows users to add faces should do something
like that, yes.

> Why places face properties according to the mode's definitions but not allow us to change the properties of inserted text, when we can do that anyway?

Because font-lock must be in full control of face property to support
the situation where the user edits the text, and as result the faces
should change (e.g., because something that was previously just text
became a comment or a string, or vice versa).

> After calling a particular mode definitions, I should be able te change properties rather than having a lock.

See above: the faces change dynamically to follow editing of the
buffer text.  It is not a one-time operation.

If a user wants to highlight addition portions of the buffer, the
user-level feature we provide is hi-lock-mode (a minor mode).  It
solves the complexity under the hood, and only requires the user to
specify the patterns to highlight.  So if you want an easy user-level
interface, I suggest to use that minor mode.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 08:26:52 +0000
> From: Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > What is weird about it? font-lock-mode places face properties
> > according to the mode's definitions, so it will overwrite any face
> > properties you put manually. Thus the need to use a different
> > property, which font-lock-mode doesn't control.
> 
> If I  want to use and enforce colour property, could there be a function that sets the colour irrpespective of whether font-lock is "on" or "off" ?

If by "I want" you mean the user, then please use the hi-lock-mode, as
I suggested in my other message.  This is the user-level facility
Emacs provides for these cases.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 12:06 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 08:09:08 +0000
> > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > What is weird about it? font-lock-mode places face properties
> > > according to the mode's definitions, so it will overwrite any face
> > > properties you put manually. Thus the need to use a different
> > > property, which font-lock-mode doesn't control.
> > 
> > But them when a user wants to introduce some text with some properties (e.g. colour), what is supposed to do.
> 
> 
> Users aren't supposed to introduce text properties, except via Lisp
> programs.
> 
> > Would you expect someone to use font-lock-face when font-lock is enabled
> > 
> > (propertize "G" 'font-lock-face '(:foreground "green"))
> > 
> > --------
> > 
> > And use
> > 
> > (propertize "G" 'face '(:foreground "green"))
> > 
> > when font lock is disabled.

As a developer, what if I do not want font-lock to change it.
Consider I make a special text file where I need to setup same
sections in specific colours.  Is there some special mode that developers can use for their own configuration and design to display to users, and which is not a programming mode ?  

What is the procedure in case there is font-lock enabled or font-lock disabled ? 
 
Should I use an if condition to test for both, as above ?

> The Lisp program which allows users to add faces should do something
> like that, yes.
> 
> > Why places face properties according to the mode's definitions but not allow us to change the properties of inserted text, when we can do that anyway?
> 
> 
> Because font-lock must be in full control of face property to support
> the situation where the user edits the text, and as result the faces
> should change (e.g., because something that was previously just text
> became a comment or a string, or vice versa).

Right.
 
> > After calling a particular mode definitions, I should be able te change properties rather than having a lock.
> 
> See above: the faces change dynamically to follow editing of the
> buffer text. It is not a one-time operation.

What if I try to do something different.  Making a buffer for a package where users are not expected to change it.  For instance, a package could make a named buffer that logs some operations, with certain things coloured.  The faces would not change dynamically because users cannot edit the buffer text.

> If a user wants to highlight addition portions of the buffer, the
> user-level feature we provide is hi-lock-mode (a minor mode). It
> solves the complexity under the hood, and only requires the user to
> specify the patterns to highlight. So if you want an easy user-level
> interface, I suggest to use that minor mode.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 12:27:22 +0000
> From: Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> What if I try to do something different.  Making a buffer for a package where users are not expected to change it.  For instance, a package could make a named buffer that logs some operations, with certain things coloured.  The faces would not change dynamically because users cannot edit the buffer text.

Then you don't need font-lock.  Just place your faces after turning
off font-lock.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 12:36 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 12:27:22 +0000
> > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > What if I try to do something different. Making a buffer for a package where users are not expected to change it. For instance, a package could make a named buffer that logs some operations, with certain things coloured. The faces would not change dynamically because users cannot edit the buffer text.
> 
> 
> Then you don't need font-lock. Just place your faces after turning
> off font-lock.

So I can use any mode (e.g. text-mode, org-mode), turn off font-lock-mode and then simply do  

(insert (propertize "G" 'face '(:foreground "green")))

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

> Perhaps I should avoid using fundamental-mode as a useful mode to
> work with.

That is indeed a very good idea.
`fundamental-mode` is like an abstract class from which you can define
your own mode, but you should basically never use it directly.


        Stefan

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 13:04:54 +0000
> From: Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 12:36 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 12:27:22 +0000
> > > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > 
> > > What if I try to do something different. Making a buffer for a package where users are not expected to change it. For instance, a package could make a named buffer that logs some operations, with certain things coloured. The faces would not change dynamically because users cannot edit the buffer text.
> > 
> > 
> > Then you don't need font-lock. Just place your faces after turning
> > off font-lock.
> 
> So I can use any mode (e.g. text-mode, org-mode), turn off font-lock-mode and then simply do  
> 
> (insert (propertize "G" 'face '(:foreground "green")))

Yes.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-12-09 15:29]:
> As a developer, what if I do not want font-lock to change it.
> Consider I make a special text file where I need to setup same
> sections in specific colours.  Is there some special mode that
> developers can use for their own configuration and design to display
> to users, and which is not a programming mode ?  

Try enriched mode.

Open any .txt file, do M-x enriched-mode and save the file.

Use Edit, Text Properties and you can load file that will visually
retain properties.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

RE: [External] : Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Drew Adams]

> Try enriched mode.

[Enriched mode is particularly for _persisting_
highlighting, in the same file.  As opposed to
re-creating highlighting in subsequent settings,
with font-lock rules for example (e.g. hi-lock).]


There are several ways to highlight text with and
without font-lock mode turned on.  Library
`highlight.el' can help.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HighlightLibrary#InteractionWithFontLock

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 6:54 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com [2022-12-09 15:29]:
> 
> > As a developer, what if I do not want font-lock to change it.
> > Consider I make a special text file where I need to setup same
> > sections in specific colours. Is there some special mode that
> > developers can use for their own configuration and design to display
> > to users, and which is not a programming mode ?
> 
> 
> Try enriched mode.
> 
> Open any .txt file, do M-x enriched-mode and save the file.
> 
> Use Edit, Text Properties and you can load file that will visually
> retain properties.
> 
> --
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/


Have tried (enriched-mode).  I then select some text and do "Edit - Text Properties - Background Colour - Other".  But nothing happens.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Emanuel Berg]

Heime wrote:

> If I want to use and enforce color property

I just added it and it seems to work!

(defun gnus-article-wash-more ()
  (article-translate-strings
   '(("colour" "color")
     ("#+begin_quote\n"          "")
     ("#+end_quote\n"            "")
     ("#+begin_src emacs-lisp\n" "")
     ("#+begin_src r\n"          "")
     ("#+end_src\n"              "")
     ("--8<---------------cut"                     "")
     ("here---------------end--------------->8---" "")
     ("here---------------start------------->8---" "")
     ("Sendt fra min iPad"                         "")
     ("Skickades från E-post för Windows 10"       "")
     ("Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone"         "")
     ("naïve" "naive")
     ("ʼ" "'")
     ("⇒" "→")
     ("➜" "→")
     ("⟦" "[")
     ("⟧" "]")
     ("> > > >" ">>>>")
     ("> > >"   ">>>")
     ("> >"     ">>") ))
  (gnus-article-strip-multiple-blank-lines) )

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 23:19:17 +0000
> From: Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Have tried (enriched-mode).  I then select some text and do "Edit - Text Properties - Background Colour - Other".  But nothing happens.

Look closer: when you do this, Emacs prompts you for the color in the
minibuffer.  So "nothing happens" is not really accurate.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, December 10th, 2022 at 7:31 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 23:19:17 +0000
> > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > Have tried (enriched-mode). I then select some text and do "Edit - Text Properties - Background Colour - Other". But nothing happens.
> 
> 
> Look closer: when you do this, Emacs prompts you for the color in the
> minibuffer. So "nothing happens" is not really accurate.

I missed that.  It does as you say.  But what is the exact procedure to change the colour of some text.  The colour in not taking effect on the text.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 08:31:30 +0000
> From: Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > Have tried (enriched-mode). I then select some text and do "Edit - Text Properties - Background Colour - Other". But nothing happens.
> > 
> > 
> > Look closer: when you do this, Emacs prompts you for the color in the
> > minibuffer. So "nothing happens" is not really accurate.
> 
> I missed that.  It does as you say.  But what is the exact procedure to change the colour of some text.

You type the name of a color, such as "green" (without the quotes),
and press RET.

> The colour in not taking effect on the text.

It does here.

Re: Adding colour when font-lock in disabled

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, December 10th, 2022 at 8:50 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 08:31:30 +0000
> > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > > Have tried (enriched-mode). I then select some text and do "Edit - Text Properties - Background Colour - Other". But nothing happens.
> > > 
> > > Look closer: when you do this, Emacs prompts you for the color in the
> > > minibuffer. So "nothing happens" is not really accurate.
> > 
> > I missed that. It does as you say. But what is the exact procedure to change the colour of some text.
> 
> 
> You type the name of a color, such as "green" (without the quotes),
> and press RET.
> 
> > The colour in not taking effect on the text.
> 
> 
> It does here.

I must be doing something in my init file that changes behaviour.