From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:46:22 +0200 Message-ID: <7f7ea5c3-8c2c-4c15-8f0f-62909214ca28@app.fastmail.com> References: <835y4ucrz3.fsf@gnu.org> <831qficgin.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87fs3x6ge7.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cthmzl.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5u56atj.fsf@gmail.com> <87r0nhhgb5.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87y1hp3pjm.fsf@gmail.com> <9b605d5a-3186-4764-b43d-854a68d04d0e@app.fastmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=80e5c3918b384e94b9b52452a74b85c9 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28573"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= , "Danny Freeman" , "Eli Zaretskii" , "Dmitry Gutov" , "Richard Stallman" , "Emacs Devel" To: "Alan Mackenzie" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 03 17:48:52 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qcpLG-00078x-EB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Sun, 3 Sep 2023 11:48:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.26; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309991 Archived-At: --80e5c3918b384e94b9b52452a74b85c9 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks for your response! I totally agree with all the points you've made. I'm looking forward to better & friendlier conversations on emacs-devel in the future. On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 12:13 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hello, Bozhidar. > > On Sun, Sep 03, 2023 at 10:33:57 +0200, Bozhidar Batsov wrote: > > Hi everyone! > > > I had decided at first to ignore this thread, given I'm on vacation > > this week, but its overall tone and directly really forced me to write > > something here. (I have to admit I'm extremely upset while writing this > > email) > > I, personally, can understand that. I have been dismayed by some of the > posts posted by my colleagues on Emacs in the last week or two. Although > I'm replying to you, the sentiments in this post are really intended for > my fellow hackers on emacs-devel. > > Over the last years your team has produced a well liked and well used > Clojure mode for Emacs. This has involved setting up and maintaining a > development system, which is no small job in itself. You don't want to > disturb this system by integrating clojure-mode into the Emacs core or > even GNU ELPA. I don't fully understand the reasons in detail, but I do > see it's not up to me, as it's not me who's put in all the work over the > years. > > I don't understand why we need to have a Clojure mode in the Emacs core, > particularly one which would be intended to compete with the existing > clojure-mode. It seems to me to be entirely within the spirit of free > software for independent projects such as clojure-mode to spring up and > flourish outside the control and direction of the central project. > > And even if Emacs were to develop its own competing Clojure mode (which I > say it should not), it MUST have a name of its own and not create > confusion by re-using name of the existing mode. Such reuse would also > not be displaying respect for the achievements of your team. We have a > precedent here, with two perl modes in Emacs. One is called perl-mode, > the other cperl-mode. As far as I'm aware, they don't get confused. > > I hope all these matters can get settled satisfactorally in the coming > days. But, whatever, please enjoy the rest of your holiday! > > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > --80e5c3918b384e94b9b52452a74b85c9 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for your= response! I totally agree with all the points you've made.

I'm looking forward to better & friendlier convers= ations on emacs-devel in the future.

On Su= n, Sep 3, 2023, at 12:13 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
Hello, Bozhidar.
<= br>
On Sun, Sep 03, 2023 at 10:33:57 +0200, Bozhidar Batsov wr= ote:
>    Hi everyone!
>    I had decided at first to ignore this= thread, given I'm on vacation
>    this= week, but its overall tone and directly really forced me to write
>    something here. (I have to admit I'm ext= remely upset while writing this
>    ema= il)

I, personally, can understand that.&nbs= p; I have been dismayed by some of the
posts posted by my = colleagues on Emacs in the last week or two.  Although
I'm replying to you, the sentiments in this post are really intended f= or
my fellow hackers on emacs-devel.

Over the last years your team has produced a well liked and well= used
Clojure mode for Emacs.  This has involved sett= ing up and maintaining a
development system, which is no s= mall job in itself.  You don't want to
disturb this s= ystem by integrating clojure-mode into the Emacs core or
e= ven GNU ELPA.  I don't fully understand the reasons in detail, but = I do
see it's not up to me, as it's not me who's put in al= l the work over the
years.

I = don't understand why we need to have a Clojure mode in the Emacs core,
particularly one which would be intended to compete with th= e existing
clojure-mode.  It seems to me to be entire= ly within the spirit of free
software for independent proj= ects such as clojure-mode to spring up and
flourish outsid= e the control and direction of the central project.

And even if Emacs were to develop its own competing Clojure mod= e (which I
say it should not), it MUST have a name of its = own and not create
confusion by re-using name of the exist= ing mode.  Such reuse would also
not be displaying re= spect for the achievements of your team.  We have a
p= recedent here, with two perl modes in Emacs.  One is called perl-mo= de,
the other cperl-mode.  As far as I'm aware, they = don't get confused.

I hope all these matter= s can get settled satisfactorally in the coming
days. = ; But, whatever, please enjoy the rest of your holiday!
-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).=


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