Semi-OT: font advice

Semi-OT: font advice

[Jesse Sheidlower]

I recently got a new computer, and the monitor's resolution at
1400 x 1050 is such that the default font, which seems to be
"-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-70-iso8859-1",
is too small to comfortably read. I am trying to find a font
that is better but am having trouble working with the fonts,
and would appreciate some advice.

The fonts I can choose from Shift-Mouse-1 are generally either
too small to be comfortably legible, or too large to fit happily
in a window. For example the "9x15" font, which is 
"-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--15-140-75-75-C-90-ISO8859-1", is a 
good shape but too large for seeing good chunks of programs. I
very much like the shape of the "fixed" font, which is
"-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-SemiCondensed--13-120-75-75-C-60-ISO8859-1",
but it's way too small, yet I don't seem to have a larger version
of this available.

The font I have in my terminal window isn't bad, but I don't know
what it is in terms of the "-*-*-" form--I'm running Gnome, and
it's chosen from a menu as being in the "Monospace" family, regular,
11 pt.

I guess my biggest problem is that I don't know how to browse the
fonts on my system from within Emacs in a way that shows me what
they really look like and what their formal names are. I've read
through the Wiki and other places and don't really know what to
try next. Any advice, either for a specific font or for ways to
better browse what I have? I'm happy to install any fonts on my
system.

Another thing is that when I do specify a font in my .emacs with
something like

(set-face-font 'default "-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--15-140-75-75-C-90-ISO8859-1")

I then can't run Emacs in a terminal window (i.e. starting up
with "emacs -nw")--I get a error "Error in init file: error:
"X windows are not in use or not initialized"". Assuming I do
eventually find a nice font, how do I use it in X without 
screwing up my non-X sessions?

Thanks very much. I'm running GNU Emacs 21.3.1, if that matters.

Jesse Sheidlower

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Cor Gest]

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) writes:

> eventually find a nice font, how do I use it in X without 
> screwing up my non-X sessions?

I've dealt with the same issues here.
It helped to put an entry in my .Xdefaults file in my home-dir
with:
--*-- .Xdefaults entry for emacs X11R6 --*--
 emacs*title:cor@cleopatra.clsnet.nl 
 emacs.font:9x15
--*-- end --*--

it could be that on higherres screens than my 1280x2034  10x20 or
 9x15bold 10x20bold could do the job also.
It 's rather annoying to do the Options => Mule set-font with mouse
 trick every time one start emacs starts.

This does not interfere with CLI. 

BTW the SuSe Linux distribution has a nice app-default/Emacs file
to set the globals. 

cor

-- 
    (defvar my-computer '((OS . "GNU-Emacs") (shell . "GNU-Linux")))
Alle sgraifvautden zijn speciaal voor internet werkgelegenheidsproject
http://www.clsnet.nl    http://geekgrrrl.nl    http://thefreeworld.net

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Kevin Rodgers]

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
 > The font I have in my terminal window isn't bad, but I don't know
 > what it is in terms of the "-*-*-" form--I'm running Gnome, and
 > it's chosen from a menu as being in the "Monospace" family, regular,
 > 11 pt.
 >
 > I guess my biggest problem is that I don't know how to browse the
 > fonts on my system from within Emacs in a way that shows me what
 > they really look like and what their formal names are. I've read
 > through the Wiki and other places and don't really know what to
 > try next. Any advice, either for a specific font or for ways to
 > better browse what I have? I'm happy to install any fonts on my
 > system.

Instead of browsing within Emacs, use the xfontsel utility.

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Kevin Rodgers]

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
 > Another thing is that when I do specify a font in my .emacs with
 > something like
 >
 > (set-face-font 'default "-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--15-140-75-75-C-90-ISO8859-1")
 >
 > I then can't run Emacs in a terminal window (i.e. starting up
 > with "emacs -nw")--I get a error "Error in init file: error:
 > "X windows are not in use or not initialized"". Assuming I do
 > eventually find a nice font, how do I use it in X without
 > screwing up my non-X sessions?

(when (eq window-system 'x)	; or better yet: (display-multi-font-p)
   (set-face-font ...))

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Jesse Sheidlower]

In article <4087F4FB.7080805@yahoo.com>,
Kevin Rodgers  <ihs_4664@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> >
> > I then can't run Emacs in a terminal window (i.e. starting up
> > with "emacs -nw")--I get a error "Error in init file: error:
> > "X windows are not in use or not initialized"". Assuming I do
> > eventually find a nice font, how do I use it in X without
> > screwing up my non-X sessions?
>
>(when (eq window-system 'x)	; or better yet: (display-multi-font-p)
>   (set-face-font ...))

Thanks, this worked perfectly.

Jesse Sheidlower

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Jesse Sheidlower]

[posted and e-mailed]

In article <4087F4FB.7080805@yahoo.com>,
Kevin Rodgers  <ihs_4664@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> > Another thing is that when I do specify a font in my .emacs with
> > something like
> >
> > (set-face-font 'default "-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--15-140-75-75-C-90-ISO8859-1")
> >
> > I then can't run Emacs in a terminal window (i.e. starting up
> > with "emacs -nw")--I get a error "Error in init file: error:
> > "X windows are not in use or not initialized"". Assuming I do
> > eventually find a nice font, how do I use it in X without
> > screwing up my non-X sessions?
>
>(when (eq window-system 'x)	; or better yet: (display-multi-font-p)
>   (set-face-font ...))

I just realized there is a problem with the latter: when I create a new
frame with C-x 5-2, the new frame is created in the system default font,
not the one I instruct in the set-face-font command. Is there a way to
ensure that any such frames appear with my chosen font?

Jesse Sheidlower

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Kevin Rodgers]

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
 > In article <4087F4FB.7080805@yahoo.com>,
 > Kevin Rodgers  <ihs_4664@yahoo.com> wrote:
 >>(when (eq window-system 'x)	; or better yet: (display-multi-font-p)
 >>  (set-face-font ...))
 >
 > I just realized there is a problem with the latter: when I create a new
 > frame with C-x 5-2, the new frame is created in the system default font,
 > not the one I instruct in the set-face-font command. Is there a way to
 > ensure that any such frames appear with my chosen font?

set-face-font's doc string says a nil or omitted FRAME argument "means
change face on all frames", which I guess means all existing frames but
not new frames.

set-default-font (aka set-frame-font) is similarly restricted, but it's
doc string at least points you in the right direction: frame-parameters.
So how about

(setq default-frame-alist
       (cons '(font . "-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--15-140-75-75-C-90-ISO8859-1")
	    default-frame-alist))

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Stefan Monnier]

> I just realized there is a problem with the latter: when I create a new
> frame with C-x 5-2, the new frame is created in the system default font,
> not the one I instruct in the set-face-font command.  Is there a way to
> ensure that any such frames appear with my chosen font?

If the behavior you got disagrees with (your understanding of) the
docstring of `set-face-font', then there's a bug and you should report it
with M-x report-emacs-bug.


        Stefan

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Jesse Sheidlower]

In article <jwvfzapb4h3.fsf-monnier+gnu.emacs.help@gnu.org>,
Stefan Monnier  <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>> I just realized there is a problem with the latter: when I create a new
>> frame with C-x 5-2, the new frame is created in the system default font,
>> not the one I instruct in the set-face-font command.  Is there a way to
>> ensure that any such frames appear with my chosen font?
>
>If the behavior you got disagrees with (your understanding of) the
>docstring of `set-face-font', then there's a bug and you should report it
>with M-x report-emacs-bug.

Given my knowledge of Emacs, I'd more likely conclude that it's
my understanding of the docs of `set-face-font` that's the problem.
It says "FRAME nil or not specified means change face on all frames",
but that leaves open the issue of whether that means 'all existing
frames' or 'all frames that exist now and are created in the future,
until such time as the font is re-set'.

But to _my_ mind this seems like a bug, and I'll report it if my
understanding is not crazy.

Jesse Sheidlower

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower)
> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
> Date: 27 Apr 2004 16:50:25 -0400
> 
> It says "FRAME nil or not specified means change face on all frames",
> but that leaves open the issue of whether that means 'all existing
> frames' or 'all frames that exist now and are created in the future,
> until such time as the font is re-set'.

It means "all frames", current and future.

In other words, it changes the face on all existing frames, and also
changes the default definition of the face used by frames that you
create afterwards.  Or at least it should.

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Tim X]

>>>>> "Jesse" == Jesse Sheidlower <jester@panix.com> writes:


 Jesse> I recently got a new computer, and the monitor's resolution at
 Jesse> 1400 x 1050 is such that the default font, which seems to be
 Jesse> "-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-70-iso8859-1",
 Jesse> is too small to comfortably read. I am trying to find a font
 Jesse> that is better but am having trouble working with the fonts,
 Jesse> and would appreciate some advice.

 Jesse> The fonts I can choose from Shift-Mouse-1 are generally either
 Jesse> too small to be comfortably legible, or too large to fit
 Jesse> happily in a window. For example the "9x15" font, which is
 Jesse> "-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--15-140-75-75-C-90-ISO8859-1", is
 Jesse> a good shape but too large for seeing good chunks of
 Jesse> programs. I very much like the shape of the "fixed" font,
 Jesse> which is
 Jesse> "-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-SemiCondensed--13-120-75-75-C-60-ISO8859-1",
 Jesse> but it's way too small, yet I don't seem to have a larger
 Jesse> version of this available.

 Jesse> The font I have in my terminal window isn't bad, but I don't
 Jesse> know what it is in terms of the "-*-*-" form--I'm running
 Jesse> Gnome, and it's chosen from a menu as being in the "Monospace"
 Jesse> family, regular, 11 pt.

 Jesse> I guess my biggest problem is that I don't know how to browse
 Jesse> the fonts on my system from within Emacs in a way that shows
 Jesse> me what they really look like and what their formal names
 Jesse> are. I've read through the Wiki and other places and don't
 Jesse> really know what to try next. Any advice, either for a
 Jesse> specific font or for ways to better browse what I have? I'm
 Jesse> happy to install any fonts on my system.

 Jesse> Another thing is that when I do specify a font in my .emacs
 Jesse> with something like

 Jesse> (set-face-font 'default
 Jesse> "-Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--15-140-75-75-C-90-ISO8859-1")

 Jesse> I then can't run Emacs in a terminal window (i.e. starting up
 Jesse> with "emacs -nw")--I get a error "Error in init file: error:
 Jesse> "X windows are not in use or not initialized"". Assuming I do
 Jesse> eventually find a nice font, how do I use it in X without
 Jesse> screwing up my non-X sessions?

 Jesse> Thanks very much. I'm running GNU Emacs 21.3.1, if that
 Jesse> matters.

 Jesse> Jesse Sheidlower


Probably the easiest way to change the font is to use xfontsel, which
will give you a way of selecting different fonts based on foundry,
family, weight, slant, width, point size, resolution, registry style
etc. Once you have found a font which you think is good, cut and
select it and then run emacs with the -fn argument to set the font
using the one you have just selected. If it looks good, then put that
into your .Xresources file with a line like

emacs*font: <font spec from xfontsel>

then as long as xrdb runs and loads your.Xresources when you login,
the default emacs font will be set to that value. Note that most
modern .inux distributions are configured by default to load personal
.Xresources.

Also, a very useful command in emacs 21.x is M-x list-faces-display.

Tim

-- 
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you 
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) writes:

> [some font] is a good shape but too large for seeing
> good chunks of programs.

another approach is to redefine "good" dynamically.
you can surf scope w/ hideshow, folding, etc, and keep
a big font to ease eye strain.  everything is in your
head anyway...

thi

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) writes:

> I don't know how to browse the
> fonts on my system from within Emacs

i (used to) use `xlsfonts':

 http://www.glug.org/people/ttn/software/ttn-pers-elisp/
        lisp/low-stress/set-font-at-point.el

before settling on my current favorite (note: split url).

thi

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[giacomo boffi]

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) writes:

> I recently got a new computer, and the monitor's resolution at
> 1400 x 1050 is such that the default font, which seems to be
> "-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-70-iso8859-1",
                                      ----**-**----
> is too small to comfortably read.

look above the *'s:
that font is intended for use with a monitor that does ~75dpi

your monitor is likely to work something in the 110-120dpi range,

let's say that you have a font "-*-BIG-*-75-75-*", designed to be ~ 1"
high on a 75dpi monitor, and that you use it on your, let's say again,
115dpi monitor

           on your monitor, the font is measured .652" high

to help your system choosing the right fonts, try 

 - fiddling with FontPath(?) ordering in (you're using a pc?) 
   /etc/X11/XF86Config, placing the 100dpi path _before_ the 75dpi one

 - starting X with the option "-dpi 115", man X should tell the
   configuration file to edit

 - this is controversial: install some scalable fonts

> I am trying to find a font that is better but am having trouble
> working with the fonts, and would appreciate some advice.

the other advice you got is very good, but i hope that my post could
be useful also in a broader perspective, as other apps could benefit
as well from larger fonts

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Jesse Sheidlower]

In article <n9m3c6uznc6.fsf@polimi.it>,
giacomo boffi  <giacomo.boffi@polimi.it> wrote:
>jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) writes:
>
>> I recently got a new computer, and the monitor's resolution at
>> 1400 x 1050 is such that the default font, which seems to be
>> "-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-70-iso8859-1",
>                                      ----**-**----
>> is too small to comfortably read.
>
>look above the *'s:
>that font is intended for use with a monitor that does ~75dpi
>
>your monitor is likely to work something in the 110-120dpi range,

Thanks. While this might be true for a normal monitor at 1400 x 1050,
I'm using a laptop with a 15" screen, so according to xdpyinfo, it
is displaying at 75dpi. So the 100dpi fonts aren't necessarily right
given this setup.

Best,

Jesse

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[giacomo boffi]

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) writes:

> In article <n9m3c6uznc6.fsf@polimi.it>,
> giacomo boffi  <giacomo.boffi@polimi.it> wrote:
>>jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) writes:
>>
>>> I recently got a new computer, and the monitor's resolution at
>>> 1400 x 1050 is such that the default font, which seems to be
>>> "-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-m-70-iso8859-1",
>>                                      ----**-**----
>>> is too small to comfortably read.
>>
>>look above the *'s:
>>that font is intended for use with a monitor that does ~75dpi
>>
>>your monitor is likely to work something in the 110-120dpi range,
>
> Thanks. While this might

might? thank you for the confidence you place in my words...

> be true for a normal monitor at 1400 x 1050, I'm using a laptop with
> a 15" screen, so according to xdpyinfo, it is displaying at
> 75dpi.

oh no Jesse!

it's your X server that's lying to you, not your faithful!

let's do a bit of math... monitors have an aspect ratio of 4:3, ok?
the hypotenuses is then in ratio of 5:4:3 to the other dimensions, so
that the diagonal of your screen, the base and the height are, to be
in the same ratios, 15":12":9".

lets'do:
(insert (format "1400(dots)/12\" = %ddpi." (/ 1400 12)))
1400(dots)/12" = 116dpi.

try again:
(insert (format "1050(dots)/9\" = %ddpi." (/ 1050 9)))
1050(dots)/9" = 116dpi.

in CRT monitors the diagonal length is nominal, so you have to
increase the dpi count by a 3-5%, but your monitor is a LCD, do all
that i can say, as don't know about LCD's, is that, _at least_, you
have a resolution of 116dpi, i.e., you see fonts that are
(insert (format "%d%% " (/7500. 116.)))

                    64% of the height you expected

> So the 100dpi fonts aren't necessarily right given this setup.

trust me: it's your X server that's lying...

ciao
                                                        gb

ps: the X server is not lying to you only (not a problem, as you
    demonstrated, at least to me, that you're a skeptical)
    it's lying to all of your apps, and what's worse, it's lying to
    the font server

-- 
BLOWN UP BY FIVE CRASHING WEB BROWSERS. EXPLODING. U-795.

Re: Semi-OT: font advice

[Kai Grossjohann]

I really love the size-16 variant of fixed that comes with GNU
intlfonts.  (It has ETL in its name.)  This should be pretty good for
your kind of resolution.

Kai