From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Konstantin Kharlamov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: contributing to Emacs Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:18:09 +0300 Message-ID: <7d40d26e48d73c6f13557c665be250c224fbc38f.camel@yandex.ru> References: <83v8fnslfz.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8fnh1h2.fsf@web.de> <83mt0zs9rc.fsf@gnu.org> <0a968a4e1b267c0f15dd237e6ea12a709fc06d5e.camel@yandex.ru> <838rcisj7o.fsf@gnu.org> <6537fa5fa5c1fe8437ed99ee0988e35895f5a54b.camel@yandex.ru> <8423a35750d8d8e0437c7708f6b4d0bbdfdb7fe0.camel@yandex.ru> <6981052a75913ea435ae2adaccdaa1c66252a6df.camel@yandex.ru> <6a22f3608f37e238ffbd20d6dead86d3aa76d01e.camel@yandex.ru> <96766e99bf2618cc4290498933c6e32bc2a0f98a.camel@yandex.ru> <83o7ldpcs8.fsf@gnu.org> <3c64fe534fee45ff75c9e2c3cece8e2ee146091e.camel@yandex.ru> <83zg4xnnyi.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16220"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.2 Cc: ams@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 11:19:22 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qAoZ7-0003xK-JU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:19:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAoYA-0005LK-SE; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 05:18:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAoY6-0005LA-CN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 05:18:18 -0400 Original-Received: from forward501c.mail.yandex.net ([2a02:6b8:c03:500:1:45:d181:d501]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAoY3-00053F-AN; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 05:18:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-24.iva.yp-c.yandex.net (mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-24.iva.yp-c.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c0c:779c:0:640:7d74:0]) by forward501c.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 7FB125E765; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:18:10 +0300 (MSK) Original-Received: by mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-24.iva.yp-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id 9IbrZEUWouQ0-SQv1Hym3; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:18:10 +0300 X-Yandex-Fwd: 1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1687079890; bh=pYv3Jgv5IX4JP9JE6RETTeEErU6WCJ7BzLRSS/GloV0=; h=References:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID; b=WJnve8JaMUs8OHDx68ETXK/umagIBqyz3/vGEVkC5haqtLMPQ6DaJh4sG0OATDdTN WGFzDrTWzThUxoPhfmz0z8UHsM+StUDmogyLVtpwNx14VsZEt6yfzzuTePIgdUz0DK pfZvSsN1/e2NHDTZsoMnFQMk4LRJPH9rm+7f3Vnk= Authentication-Results: mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-24.iva.yp-c.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru In-Reply-To: <83zg4xnnyi.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a02:6b8:c03:500:1:45:d181:d501; envelope-from=hi-angel@yandex.ru; helo=forward501c.mail.yandex.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306929 Archived-At: On Sun, 2023-06-18 at 12:01 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Konstantin Kharlamov > > Cc: ams@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:53:09 +0300 > >=20 > > On Sun, 2023-06-18 at 08:20 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >=20 > > > When someone posts a patch, he or she is not requested to read that > > > section, let alone pass some kind of exam on being familiar with it. > > > I'm quite sure 99% of contributors don't even know that section exist= s > > > in the manual, and have never read it.=C2=A0 So the size of that node= is > > > utterly irrelevant to how hard it is to contribute to Emacs. > >=20 > > You can't send a patch if you don't know how and where to send it =F0= =9F=98=8A So you > > can't avoid reading that section. >=20 > False.=C2=A0 People know how to reach us even without reading.=C2=A0 The = few > Emacs mailing lists are common knowledge, and are just an Internet > search away if someone needs that. Okay, let's conduct an experiment. Suppose I am a new contributor who never contributed via MLs. So first I search for "Emacs contribute". I get this U= RL https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Contributing.html There I see a suggestion to implement a new feature and submit a patch. So = then I use page search for word "patch" to see where are details on how to do th= at. I find a link "Sending Patches". There I find a suggestion to send it to bugtracker, and then various points about MIME types, what needs to be done= , etc. In what case do you imagine such new developer would not need to read that section and still will successfully send a patch? =F0=9F=A4=B7=E2=80=8D=E2= =99=82=EF=B8=8F > > > If you are keen on studying how this is done and whether and how it > > > can be improved (as opposed to reiterating that "Cartage shall be > > > destroyed"), I invite you to read the typical discussions of such > > > submissions on our issue tracker.=C2=A0 There, you will see what we > > > _really_ require from the contributors and how the process goes. > > > Here's one recent example: > > >=20 > > > =C2=A0 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D64126 > > >=20 > > > Here's another: > > >=20 > > > =C2=A0 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D64045 > > >=20 > > > And one more: > > >=20 > > > =C2=A0 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D63913 > >=20 > > I looked through these links but I'm not sure what they supposed to sho= w me. >=20 > How patch submitting process works in reality. I know how it works, I've been contributing to Emacs. Which is why I'm not = sure what was I supposed to see there. I looked at the links and it seems to be pretty usual. > > I've been contributing patches from time to time and back when I had my > > first > > ones I've been multiple times pointed to CONTRIBUTE file due to getting > > either > > formatting or something else wrong. Which is why I'm saying there's an > > expectation to read that file as well. >=20 > There's no such expectation.=C2=A0 We live in the real world, not in some > fantasy.=C2=A0 When the patch doesn't follow our conventions, we either > correct that by hand when installing it or (if the deviations are too > significant) ask the contributor to make those changes and resubmit. Okay, maybe something changed. I am saying from my experience of contributi= ng patches. > > > Yes, many other projects do it differently.=C2=A0 By and large, they = are > > > toy projects whose median life time is about 1/10th that of Emacs, an= d > > > the size is accordingly small.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=20 > > Mesa isn't small. Neither is systemd, docker, podman. >=20 > I said "by and large". Well, in this case I might be missing what you meant to say. You pointed ou= t there are small projects with different workflow, I pointed out there are l= arge ones. So I guess that cancels out. If that was meant to present some point = to me, I'm not seeing it.