From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 11:06:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7cecbad5-1f01-4c73-811a-aa11cc21d0a0@default> References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> <3096922F-ACE6-4D70-BDB9-F6110FF8C62A@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389121622 17252 80.91.229.3 (7 Jan 2014 19:07:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:07:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Richard Stallman , Toby Cubitt , Emacs-Devel devel , Eric Raymond , Stefan Monnier , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Joel Mccracken , Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 07 20:07:06 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W0bzV-0003WK-5r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 20:07:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42340 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0bzU-0003Vr-L4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:07:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47357) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0bzG-0003FJ-7R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:06:58 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0bz7-0001Wj-Fh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:06:50 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:18697) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0bz7-0001Wf-8j; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:06:41 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s07J6QuF018198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:06:26 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s07J6OrJ011870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:06:25 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s07J6OH1005217; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:06:24 GMT In-Reply-To: <3096922F-ACE6-4D70-BDB9-F6110FF8C62A@gmail.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167656 Archived-At: > Beyond trying to remember, using current terminology is sends > the message that Emacs is old, stubborn, and crufty,=A0which is a > problem when trying to introduce new users to Emacs. No, it does not. If Emacs were invented from scratch today, it would still need its own jargon. Some of the particulars would no doubt be different, but Emacs would still stand apart in both behavior and terminology. Emacs happens to be old. And it happens to be different. Being different does not send a message that Emacs is old, or stubborn, or crufty. Being old means that it is, well, old. But that too does not send a message that it is stubborn or crufty. You are sending that message, by proposing that the terminology be updated etc. Someone new to Emacs and aware of this kind of discussion can be forgiven for getting the mistaken impression that Emacs behavior is just the same as other apps but the terminology is out-of-date and so makes learning it unnecessarily difficult. That's the wrong message entirely - quite misleading. The right takeaway for a new user is that learning Emacs is learning something new and different - it is not your momma's editor. And it rightfully has its own terminology, which you had better learn also. The Greek philosopher Proclus records that when Ptolemy asked if there wasn't perhaps an easier way to learn Emacs than Emacs, Euclid replied, "Sire, there is no royal road to Emacs."