ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Deniz Dogan]

This has always bugged me and I keep forgetting how to set it, since
there are two variables that need to be changed. By default, ERC
buffers "scroll" just like other Emacs buffers, i.e. when point
reaches below the currently visible portion of the buffer (e.g. when a
new message arrives in an ERC buffer), it scrolls half a buffer
length.

Given the nature of IRC and IM protocols in general, I think most
people would want to enable scrolltobottom by default and set
erc-input-line-position to -1, to make it act like pretty much every
other IRC client out there.

What do people think about this proposal?

-- 
Deniz Dogan

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Chong Yidong]

Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@gmail.com> writes:

> This has always bugged me and I keep forgetting how to set it, since
> there are two variables that need to be changed. By default, ERC
> buffers "scroll" just like other Emacs buffers, i.e. when point
> reaches below the currently visible portion of the buffer (e.g. when a
> new message arrives in an ERC buffer), it scrolls half a buffer
> length.
>
> Given the nature of IRC and IM protocols in general, I think most
> people would want to enable scrolltobottom by default and set
> erc-input-line-position to -1, to make it act like pretty much every
> other IRC client out there.
>
> What do people think about this proposal?

CC'ing Michael Olson, ERC's maintainer.

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Edward O'Connor]

> This has always bugged me[...]
> Given the nature of IRC and IM protocols in general, I think most
> people would want to enable scrolltobottom by default and set
> erc-input-line-position to -1,

I disagree. One of the advantages of using IRC (or IM, etc.) in Emacs
is that things act like they're in Emacs. If a buffer started keeping
its last line at the bottom of the window, regardless of mode, that
would be really weird.

> to make it act like pretty much every
> other IRC client out there.

By that argument, we should have kept `erc-prompt-interactive-input',
which moved the ERC prompt out of the buffer and into the minibuffer.
But that UI doesn't fit in with Emacs, so we dropped it.

> I keep forgetting how to set it, since there are two variables that need to be changed.

Maybe the documentation could be improved to make how to do this more clear?


Ted

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Deniz Dogan]

2009/7/31 Edward O'Connor <hober0@gmail.com>:
>> This has always bugged me[...]
>> Given the nature of IRC and IM protocols in general, I think most
>> people would want to enable scrolltobottom by default and set
>> erc-input-line-position to -1,
>
> I disagree. One of the advantages of using IRC (or IM, etc.) in Emacs
> is that things act like they're in Emacs. If a buffer started keeping
> its last line at the bottom of the window, regardless of mode, that
> would be really weird.

Personally, I don't think that would be weird at all, as it is the way
"many other editors", and especially IRC clients, do it. Now that I
think about it, I would actually like to have that behavior by default
in all of my Emacs buffers... I can see why others would see it as
weird though.

>> to make it act like pretty much every
>> other IRC client out there.
>
> By that argument, we should have kept `erc-prompt-interactive-input',
> which moved the ERC prompt out of the buffer and into the minibuffer.
> But that UI doesn't fit in with Emacs, so we dropped it.

In the case of Emacs and ERC, I think there just happened to exist two
separate "lowermost lines" in the client; one in each ERC buffer, like
mIRC's MDI windows, and one in the minibuffer, like irssi's
channel-independent input line. The analogue to the minibuffer in
other clients could be seen as a status bar (status messages that are
not in the mode line) or a settings dialog (M-x, M-:), etc. And of
course, it could also be regarded a place to put messages.

>> I keep forgetting how to set it, since there are two variables that need to be changed.
>
> Maybe the documentation could be improved to make how to do this more clear?

The documentation is probably clear enough, I'm just too lazy to read
it. I simply don't see the point in having half a window of empty
space in an IRC buffer. In my eyes, the current defaults are just a
waste of screen space in the name of being like the rest of Emacs in
general.

Another idea would be to automatically set erc-input-line-position to
-1 when erc-scrolltobottom-mode is started. I can't see how
erc-scrolltobottom-mode would be useful without it. What do you think?

-- 
Deniz Dogan

RE: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Drew Adams]

> I simply don't see the point in having half a window of empty
> space in an IRC buffer. In my eyes, the current defaults are just a
> waste of screen space in the name of being like the rest of Emacs in
> general.

I haven't followed this thread. Apologies if I misunderstand.

It sounds like you are perhaps talking about bug #3576:
http://emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=3576

If so, this is the bottom line as to why the bug is unlikely to be fixed (from
Stefan):

> The real justification is that it's difficult to implement
> and the benefits are dubious.

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Deniz Dogan]

2009/7/31 Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@gmail.com>:
> Another idea would be to automatically set erc-input-line-position to
> -1 when erc-scrolltobottom-mode is started. I can't see how
> erc-scrolltobottom-mode would be useful without it. What do you think?

I was just informed on IRC by bojohan that erc-input-line-position is
nil by default which has the exact same effect as letting it be -1.
I'm not sure where the confusion about this arose, as I'm fairly sure
I had to set it to -1 before.

(But I still think erc-scrolltobottom-mode should be turned on by default.)

-- 
Deniz Dogan

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Stefan Monnier]

> I disagree. One of the advantages of using IRC (or IM, etc.) in Emacs
> is that things act like they're in Emacs. If a buffer started keeping
> its last line at the bottom of the window, regardless of mode, that
> would be really weird.

You mean weird as in "compilation-mode"?  ;-)


        Stefan

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Bastien]

"Edward O'Connor" <hober0@gmail.com> writes:

> By that argument, we should have kept `erc-prompt-interactive-input',
> which moved the ERC prompt out of the buffer and into the minibuffer.
> But that UI doesn't fit in with Emacs, so we dropped it.

Btw, is is possible to have the prompt in a separate small window?

And, while I'm at it, is it possible to make `erc-auto-query' to behave
differently depending on who is writing you?  I'm using ERC + BitlBee.
For some people, I want a separate window to open, for others I don't.

Does anyone already encounter that need?

And a small annoying thing: with ERC + BitlBee, messages from people
that I'm not in a conversation with go to the "localhost:6667" buffer
instead of the "&bitlbee" channel.  Meaning that I have to start talking
to them to see their messages.  Is their a way to have all messages sent
to "&bitlbee" all the time?

Thanks for any direction,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Deniz Dogan]

2009/8/2 Bastien <bastienguerry@googlemail.com>:
> Btw, is is possible to have the prompt in a separate small window?
>
> And, while I'm at it, is it possible to make `erc-auto-query' to behave
> differently depending on who is writing you?  I'm using ERC + BitlBee.
> For some people, I want a separate window to open, for others I don't.
>
> Does anyone already encounter that need?
>
> And a small annoying thing: with ERC + BitlBee, messages from people
> that I'm not in a conversation with go to the "localhost:6667" buffer
> instead of the "&bitlbee" channel.  Meaning that I have to start talking
> to them to see their messages.  Is their a way to have all messages sent
> to "&bitlbee" all the time?

I'd love it if you create a new thread next time, as this is a
comptelely unrelated problem.

-- 
Deniz Dogan

Tweak erc-auto-query? (was: Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default)

[Bastien]

[Reposting to comply with Deniz's standards.]

I'm using ERC + BitlBee. For some people, I want a separate window to
open, for others I don't.  Is it possible to make `erc-auto-query' to
behave differently depending on who is writing you?

Does anyone already encounter that need?

-- 
 Bastien

Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel? (was: Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default)

[Bastien]

[Reposting to comply with Deniz's standards.]

A small annoyance: with ERC + BitlBee, messages from people that I'm not
in a conversation with go to the "localhost:6667" buffer instead of the
"&bitlbee" channel.  Meaning that I have to start talking to them to see
their messages.  Is their a way to have all messages sent to "&bitlbee"
all the time?

Thanks for any direction,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Renaud Casenave-Péré]

Hi,

If you set the `private' option in your bitlbee channel to false, every message you receive from people will go to the &bitlbee channel.

Then, you can answer them by putting their name in front of your message, or you can use the /query command to open a new window and continue your conversation.

This behavior may also be the solution to your other question.

-- 
Renaud Casenave-Péré

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Bastien]

Renaud Casenave-Péré <renaud@casenave-pere.fr> writes:

> If you set the `private' option in your bitlbee channel to false,
> every message you receive from people will go to the &bitlbee channel.

Thanks!

I found this on http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki?BitlBee

  By default, new conversations with buddie start in the control
  channel. However, most people probably prefer to have a separate
  window for every conversation. So you might want BitlBee to send
  messages directly to you instead of via the control channel. This is
  possible. Type the command “help set private” for more information.

`help set private' gives me this:

  If value is true, messages from users will appear in separate query
  windows. If false, messages from users will appear in the control
  channel.

`private' is set to true, but I still get message in localhost:6667. 

Any idea?

> This behavior may also be the solution to your other question.

The one about fine tuning erc-auto-query depending on the user?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Renaud Casenave-Péré]

Hi,

> `private' is set to true, but I still get message in localhost:6667. 
I think this behavior is due to ERC, but the default works well for me.
Did you set erc-auto-query to 0 ?

> The one about fine tuning erc-auto-query depending on the user?
Well, you have to invoke the /query command yourself each time you want your conversation in another window... Not a really good choice, I know...

-- 
Renaud Casenave-Péré

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Bastien]

Renaud Casenave-Péré <renaud@casenave-pere.fr> writes:

> Did you set erc-auto-query to 0 ?

You mean to `t'?  

For me the variable erc-auto-query has no effect on whether the message
is display in the localhost:6667 buffer or in the &bitlbee buffer.  And
again, the problem is only for messages that are sent by people who I
didn't start a discussion with...  for those that I already discuss with
in the &bitlbee buffer, their subsequent messages are correctly
displayed in the &bitlbee buffer.

>> The one about fine tuning erc-auto-query depending on the user?

> Well, you have to invoke the /query command yourself each time you
> want your conversation in another window... Not a really good choice,
> I know...

What I want is to make erc-auto-query to open a window for certain
people and to leave the message in the &bitlbee channel for some
others.   

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Renaud Casenave-Péré]

Hi,

>> Did you set erc-auto-query to 0 ?
>You mean to `t'?  
Yes sorry, I mean to non-nil.

> For me the variable erc-auto-query has no effect on whether the message
> is display in the localhost:6667 buffer or in the &bitlbee buffer.
This behavior is controled by bitlbee's `private' variable.
If private is set to true, every message you receive will be a private message. And if erc-auto-query is set to nil, you will receive your private messages to localhost:6667.
But if erc-auto-query is set to non-nil, ERC will open a new window with your newly received private message.

> What I want is to make erc-auto-query to open a window for certain
> people and to leave the message in the &bitlbee channel for some
> others.   
Yes, I understand, but I don't know if such a feature exists or not.

-- 
Renaud Casenave-Péré

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Bastien]

Renaud Casenave-Péré <renaud@casenave-pere.fr> writes:

> If private is set to true, every message you receive will be a private
> message. And if erc-auto-query is set to nil, you will receive your
> private messages to localhost:6667.

> But if erc-auto-query is set to non-nil, ERC will open a new window
> with your newly received private message.

So there is no way to get all messages redirected to &bitlbee channel
instead of the localhost:6667 buffer?  I want erc-auto-query to be nil
and messages to appear in the &bitlbee channel -- as they do when the
conversation already started...

Thanks for your help so far,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Renaud Casenave-Péré]

> So there is no way to get all messages redirected to &bitlbee channel
> instead of the localhost:6667 buffer?  I want erc-auto-query to be nil
> and messages to appear in the &bitlbee channel -- as they do when the
> conversation already started...

Yes you can, set `private' to false.

-- 
Renaud Casenave-Péré

Re: Send all ERC messages to the &bitlbee channel?

[Bastien]

Renaud Casenave-Péré <renaud@casenave-pere.fr> writes:

> If you set the `private' option in your bitlbee channel to false,
> every message you receive from people will go to the &bitlbee channel.

For now I'll set private to false and I will ignore the inconsistence
between bitlbee doc and ERC.  We'll see if that works...

-- 
 Bastien

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Ivan Kanis]

Bastien <bastienguerry@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for any direction,

It's time to try elim ;) http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ELIM
-- 
Ivan
http://kanis.fr

Chess is a foolish expedient for making idle people believe they
are doing something very clever when they are only wasting their time.
    -- George Bernard Shaw 

Re: ERC: Scroll to bottom by default

[Óscar Fuentes]

Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@gmail.com> writes:

> This has always bugged me and I keep forgetting how to set it, since
> there are two variables that need to be changed. By default, ERC
> buffers "scroll" just like other Emacs buffers, i.e. when point
> reaches below the currently visible portion of the buffer (e.g. when a
> new message arrives in an ERC buffer), it scrolls half a buffer
> length.

This is very annoying indeed, specially in eshell.

> Given the nature of IRC and IM protocols in general, I think most
> people would want to enable scrolltobottom by default and set
> erc-input-line-position to -1, to make it act like pretty much every
> other IRC client out there.

I don't know a way of fixing it on eshell. There is

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/EshellScrolling

(which curiously mentions ERC as well) but either the recipes do not
work on all cases or requires patching the eshell sources.

-- 
Óscar