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Sun, 27 Aug 2023 07:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <835y51kslv.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.24; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.57, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309320 Archived-At: On 27/08/2023 07:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > IMNSHO, the above is an extremely optimistic and naïve view of the > actual state of matters. Significantly, it emphasizes the advantages > of the proposed changes/alternatives and consistently and completely > ignores the disadvantages (which are known and were described and > discussed many times). I'm not sure where I'm looking optimistic in the whole text. > But the important part is what was said many times in this and other > similar discussions: those who want these deep changes are invited to > step up and become Emacs (co)-maintainers, and then make the changes > and actually use them for Emacs development, instead of telling others > how to do their jobs. If the cost is taking over entirely and dedicating 7+ hours every day to Emacs (as you said you do), this is obviously a prohibitive barrier. I don't think it's a reasonable ask when I'm just talking about using a real bug tracker, for example. > It is at least unfair to expect us to do our > job well, and then tell us how to do it and what tools to use for it. > And that is even before we recall that those alternative tools are > either semi-broken or lack important features (or both) that the > existing "obsolete" tools offer us basically for zero cost. The existing tools "lack important features" to such a degree that it's not even funny. And the cost is not zero, the cost is the people that never set foot in our community. > And none > of the alternatives withstood the test of time and/or the magnitude of > the project. Should we mention other big projects? GNOME? Firefox? Emacs is complex but not that unique.