From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: please make line-move-visual nil Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:32:53 -0700 Message-ID: <7C757F28-A6B2-48FB-A8AC-CF2E1728FA68@gmail.com> References: <4A0C402C.7060804@slugfest.demon.co.uk> <20090514181712.GA2413@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--82115131; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1242365605 24917 80.91.229.12 (15 May 2009 05:33:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 05:33:25 +0000 (UTC) To: Alan Mackenzie , Emacs-Devel devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 15 07:33:18 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1M4q2m-0006LL-Vp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 07:33:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58226 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M4q2m-0001Bm-3K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 01:33:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M4q2c-00019Y-7K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 01:33:06 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M4q2W-00018m-BB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 01:33:04 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=55701 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M4q2W-00018j-4i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 01:33:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ew0-f210.google.com ([209.85.219.210]:57945) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1M4q2V-0005u6-MJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 01:32:59 -0400 Original-Received: by ewy6 with SMTP id 6so2274839ewy.42 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:32:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:references :x-mailer; bh=+zo18Q61Kj8xQFTX8KLjIYm4PbO9lgiWgIVHBGkn/aQ=; b=Ruvb0rTLs6sw7yAumQjRi+PQAoMFSU4Fq1QtKddScJ0YQd6fvWxCkaJn7f4XQHgz1z fFh37rpm18o4O64/tJkFo0x91yOy/yefxZo2Z5btk06GzuTXbw1NFWRNHTNimzyP1OI9 lUBvFp5Iv7Dxc4DnUnHDbwT7+XIPnfGLAom3U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type:mime-version:subject :date:references:x-mailer; b=s/YuJoTeBsFJCTslta8d5WWtERLVK+avGcqODDkuCO3UwCHyKEVn2ob+ZPvn6ghEgX vjH+IXNIx5gYyOrOzF3xYCTooqpMbYwddKsAh1JKDWgwGbF0Jj5hvY+NXU46HFpDm23D SZ4g4l7DM3DPvjhAW8GAnrN8OmRNa6vbydZTo= Original-Received: by 10.210.87.14 with SMTP id k14mr3661298ebb.97.1242365578974; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?192.168.251.246? ([69.26.225.190]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1139641eya.49.2009.05.14.22.32.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 14 May 2009 22:32:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090514181712.GA2413@muc.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:110884 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail-4--82115131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 14, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> >> On a more general note, I wonder why experienced users occasionally >> resist change in the UI in general (as it breaks things) rather than >> avoiding to upgrade. > > [linguistic point: "avoid" takes a noun or a gerund (which needn't be > round), not an infinitive. You want "avoiding an upgrade" or > "avoiding > upgrading" here.] You are right. My heartfelt apologies. Language is to me what people (me excluded) speak, not what some book says. The avoid+infinitive construction doesn't get any traction in a Google search (using past tense), so I concede. > You're not trying to ignite another rambling heated debate about > changing > long standing features, are you? OK, thought not. God no, I am not. > Changing the UI makes the new version incompatible with the learning > of > the users of the old versions. Absolutely. But if people don't like change, then they shouldn't be forced to upgrade if we provided decent support for older versions. As you said, a new VCS will hopefully facilitate this. I use git and have evaluated Bazaar, and they both can cherry-pick bugfixes from the development branch and facilitate just that. One could really start with Emacs 22. Projects of the size/importance of Emacs should provide a roadmap with a promise to support certain releases for x many years. But even providing [important] bug fixes for the 22 series for a while should be considered. - David (who is actually a Diplom-Sprachwissenschaftler.) --Apple-Mail-4--82115131 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIFxDCCAn0w ggHmoAMCAQICED6shx13jEDrq0eL8FRq5ykwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MTIwOTAyMDgwMVoXDTA5MTIwOTAyMDgw MVowYjEQMA4GA1UEBBMHUmVpdHRlcjEOMAwGA1UEKhMFRGF2aWQxFjAUBgNVBAMTDURhdmlkIFJl aXR0ZXIxJjAkBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWF2RhdmlkLnJlaXR0ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDOdo6kAwlkBxUb8dj4saMbYg4SVng8CUePFn3cjjWrakBTbUVa4Z0n wlUxr7AitEeKhBy5nGhu96+jKUPrCwYNRCZ0l2ovvuGq4z1m1nZ5/c8WvFlVhieuxXMUfmb/O7D3 IojoX6iS8n5MNNU2IWNNT/AD3vOl6DKgOtOw4J9y+QIDAQABozQwMjAiBgNVHREEGzAZgRdkYXZp ZC5yZWl0dGVyQGdtYWlsLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAIjI8yEW wkiEfA9PMgpjnD6KyCXT0iZjHhW2PkR53yZZLUoTboHnKgsFwYp/gzzIL8J5cvZaRUyMUzXDufPP dRmxxCs2jXXLDD/8bvdvOuMzqgYoFA73fAfsC8S6qUL1PayZ90J8CZHNhDwqWqOA56T+DdKUegJT sqoHKh6OnypTMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx FTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3duMRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3 dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEk MCIGA1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJz b25hbC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoXDTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVow YjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAq BgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU 5VAKMNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTX p6a7n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8C AQAwQwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29tL1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFs RnJlZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2 YXRlTGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswNo2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aU nX9MIbj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSeJVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5 jowgT2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/XV9lTzGCAo8wggKLAgEB MHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4x LDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhA+rIcdd4xA66tH i/BUaucpMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggFvMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcN AQkFMQ8XDTA5MDUxNTA1MzI1M1owIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFO0jEar5OCk15EDUxK7jADoYzhry MIGFBgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxeDB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3Vs dGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWlu ZyBDQQIQPqyHHXeMQOurR4vwVGrnKTCBhwYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxeKB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpB MSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUg UGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQPqyHHXeMQOurR4vwVGrnKTANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQEFAASBgC7dzPm0cmhFRzwC20VXWg/bbgHm/Og2IUhui3CZ1OwLL7Y7rINGe/ql/0nZQbbOfcmB SyaN0dtcJTZzrIQWl91ETYWATBE/yo/fY523v2QD38peS6035j39+0prGl6m8u51Jrtz3ucXnaXQ X0Or0kwVDQc0pLVRYcnhcwDcEMWHAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-4--82115131--