From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: JD Smith Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:39:02 -0500 Message-ID: <7B07650E-50E8-407D-991C-53CA470D243F@gmail.com> References: <87h6i6y2ch.fsf@yahoo.com> <874je6xwxc.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3836"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 18 13:40:03 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgSf-0000p4-GE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 13:40:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgRy-0000hj-Oy; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:39:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgRx-0000hT-91 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:39:17 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbgRv-0007dO-I9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 07:39:17 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-42c758f075dso39234441cf.0 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 04:39:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708259954; x=1708864754; darn=gnu.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=AUDF57FXFarGqwrhlGTYiig5F3CynZt8Vtosv2DJkZ0=; b=ahPSL2Z3WtGYEKpNKxMrdQBxU4GZQkOWbaxdNl3mUbYH2Fv1KRZJvJDh3Vz5reUiTE T0q7VL1CpZrRIGXY3KQw8GRKX3gqpba/i6k7B/MjmSDQywlYGnOQO6Kfh6X5pkEsW1VT gUSIdhkVM1SDEj6o7h8Hb4nZWMrNLZnKeutV1QTxoUnZauSqyoAspkYGNKMxF/Ryl9N2 E+yKvlE4sCSBtxKobGToTk8dKG4euW+JIS5BEu6zw4SKZk25wGgu9ONsTO+D2hJE4DqG IoxIksKn+sELphNyh6dGwIec5UJ6jRChkh8/k/PoDOlpyM7hN/66wTMrbwvYw1U1G/uy uC4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708259954; x=1708864754; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AUDF57FXFarGqwrhlGTYiig5F3CynZt8Vtosv2DJkZ0=; b=LL98xEWpJhMJgNAoTVDJA53BcSfmDP+OMo39btWaHu4b2bFsTNJKvtZbuDoDTux4wx KPkG4q9QmKloq7nVSKA9LHi9IutayyNppiiGuJUvKkcBFHhOAIgIJviJftMnhNlNgON7 mOsgGUJqRfiAXjuG6OV5PW9lbZSPOpAeu8oJ8G4hhpVUFmHwF2RGGJnDXTIOYNhbOrfH E+V1r42lNwMsTuuYGCypWr2Z/DW7N/nfTulAqtDQWalRJoX8v/tosa7KOWVDExBPQJne PT2zhrjMEWqaHZ/L+P108GclFgcUaH2vbHYO63cADX9dPwxDDFBLnCSxV7eraJqpLF0C 4E7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy2+/Ht8I8asw1IFpEJIdz67nZgrZ/FU5XtF00IX91vLM06diWF bbpgjvsILxd0NH5xo7gr/1lQto68PYcDmCBoDU/OzlILDVPBl3dnE4KeRVmI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGQC5aBqYR+G3V3KhC9mC9KtmB1i/HPl/yFAWCpgHyQN99eDm8tyhzq43gAZ4DFLP6cuSEm4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:589:b0:42c:7594:41ae with SMTP id c9-20020a05622a058900b0042c759441aemr14851302qtb.9.1708259954117; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 04:39:14 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (cm-24-53-187-34.buckeyecom.net. [24.53.187.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h14-20020a05622a170e00b0042db60e6524sm1622097qtk.6.2024.02.18.04.39.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Feb 2024 04:39:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <874je6xwxc.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d; envelope-from=jdtsmith@gmail.com; helo=mail-qt1-x82d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316304 Archived-At: >=20 >> Because in ELPA, users must proactively opt-in to the use of the >> package. For such users =E2=80=94 those who have actively sought it = out =E2=80=94 in >> stark contrast to the vast majority of Emacs users, the benefits >> dramatically outweigh the costs. >=20 > The other side of this assertion is that users must opt-out of loading > packages in core, and therefore that the entire lisp directory (bar > obsolete) is loaded into every Emacs session at startup, which is > clearly untrue. I know some inexperienced users have this concern, but I don't think = anyone here believes that. I also do not worry for one second about the = 1,007,028 bytes **/idlw*.{el,texi,info} occupy, since downloading them = takes <<1 second. No, the costs I see are not related to unwanted = bytes, neither bytes on disk nor bytes loaded into the running emacs = process. But reasonable people can disagree about the scope of these = costs. Disabling the auto-mode-alist and moving the manual from the top = level would go a long way towards mitigating them, IMO. =20 I am of course not myself an emacs maintainer, but I would be interested = to hear whether everyone who is agrees that maintenance costs are = "strictly zero" for seldom-used code.=20 Thanks for your thoughts.