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Sun, 3 Sep 2023 17:00:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <83cyyz6y02.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310026 Archived-At: --f9ee51add04d47258a69a67936401950 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's good to hear and it sounds fairly reasonable to me. I'm guessing = that the hardest part will be getting everyone to sign the CA, as there = were quite a few contributors over the years. (and ideally we'll need so= me simple way to get new contributors to sign the CA - I'm not sure what= 's the process these days) =20 One more thing that came to mind is how are we going to deal with update= s of package that happen between Emacs major releases. I'm guessing that= clojure-mode should also be available on GNU ELPA, so users can update = to the latest version, right?=20 If you don't mind - I'd like to ask to put the topic on hold for a bit h= ere, so I can discuss it properly with the other members of clojure-emac= s and hear how they feel about it. If you truly believe that it'd be imp= ortant to include clojure-mode in Emacs we'll consider this carefully. I= hope you'll agree that's not super time sensitive and there's no need t= o make hasty decisions.=20 Despite the unpleasant tone of the conversation at times, I'm trying to = keep an open mind here and I appreciate everyone who has provided some c= onstructive opinions to the discussion.=20 On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:07 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:37:07 +0200 > > From: "Bozhidar Batsov" > > Cc: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora , > > "Richard Stallman" , "Danny Freeman" , > > "Eli Zaretskii" , "Emacs Devel" , > > "Manuel Uberti" > >=20 > > - where are issues reported? I don't want to use the Emacs issue tra= cker, but that'd be unavoidable > > for something built-in, so instead of having one issue tracker you e= nd up with two (one of which I > > really dislike) >=20 > There's no requirement to use debbugs for your package, even if it is > in core. Org, for example, doesn't. When people submit bug reports > about Org to debbugs, we redirect them to the Org list. >=20 > > - some patches will be submitted on GitHub, some on emacs-devel - I = highly doubt that all the > > clojure-mode maintainers would be willing to deal with this >=20 > Same here: there's no requirement to have patches submitted directly > to us. Quite the contrary: as long as you and your colleagues > actively develop and maintain the package, we'd prefer that patches > are first reviewed by you. >=20 > > - discussions related to problems/ideas would be happening in differ= ent places >=20 > Again, not a requirement. But yes, the developers should be available > on emacs-devel, because issues could pop up here. You could have a > representative, though, not all of you. >=20 > > - there's also so overhead of keeping the GitHub repo and the code i= n Emacs in sync >=20 > Ihor and others should correct me, but what overhead do you have in > mind? We already have a few packages that are basically developed > outside of Emacs and only merged with Emacs from time to time, so you > will not be the first package to go that way. >=20 > > I can go on and on about this - hybrid development models simply com= e with a lot of overhead. I get > > that here many people think that GitHub is the root of all evil, but= political preferences aside - it's the > > largest forge in the world by a huge margin and I think it provides = unique benefits to projects that > > can't be replicated elsewhere. At least not today.=20 >=20 > I think the difficulties are not as great as you imagine. And our > opinions about GitHub are not relevant if the package is regularly > merged into emacs.git. >=20 >=20 --f9ee51add04d47258a69a67936401950 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's good to = hear and it sounds fairly reasonable to me. I'm guessing that the hardes= t part will be getting everyone to sign the CA, as there were quite a fe= w contributors over the years. (and ideally we'll need some simple way t= o get new contributors to sign the CA - I'm not sure what's the process = these days) 

One more thing that came= to mind is how are we going to deal with updates of package that happen= between Emacs major releases. I'm guessing that clojure-mode should als= o be available on GNU ELPA, so users can update to the latest version, r= ight?

If you don't mind - I'd like to ask = to put the topic on hold for a bit here, so I can discuss it properly wi= th the other members of clojure-emacs and hear how they feel about it. I= f you truly believe that it'd be important to include clojure-mode in Em= acs we'll consider this carefully. I hope you'll agree that's not super = time sensitive and there's no need to make hasty decisions.

Despite the unpleasant tone of the conversation at tim= es, I'm trying to keep an open mind here and I appreciate everyone who h= as provided some constructive opinions to the discussion.

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:07 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Date: Su= n, 03 Sep 2023 17:37:07 +0200
> From: "Bozhidar Batsov"= <bozhidar@batsov.dev><= br>
> Cc: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com>,
>  = "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>= ;, "Danny Freeman" <danny@dfr= eeman.email>,
>  "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>, "Emacs Devel" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
<= div>>  "Manuel Uberti" <manuel.uberti@inventati.org>
> 
> - where are issues reported? I don't want to use the E= macs issue tracker, but that'd be unavoidable
> for som= ething built-in, so instead of having one issue tracker you end up with = two (one of which I
> really dislike)
There's no requirement to use debbugs for your package, even= if it is
in core.  Org, for example, doesn't.  = When people submit bug reports
about Org to debbugs, we re= direct them to the Org list.

> - some pa= tches will be submitted on GitHub, some on emacs-devel - I highly doubt = that all the
> clojure-mode maintainers would be willin= g to deal with this

Same here: there's no r= equirement to have patches submitted directly
to us. = Quite the contrary: as long as you and your colleagues
ac= tively develop and maintain the package, we'd prefer that patches
are first reviewed by you.

> - d= iscussions related to problems/ideas would be happening in different pla= ces

Again, not a requirement.  But yes= , the developers should be available
on emacs-devel, becau= se issues could pop up here.  You could have a
repres= entative, though, not all of you.

> - th= ere's also so overhead of keeping the GitHub repo and the code in Emacs = in sync

Ihor and others should correct me, = but what overhead do you have in
mind?  We already ha= ve a few packages that are basically developed
outside of = Emacs and only merged with Emacs from time to time, so you
will not be the first package to go that way.

<= div>> I can go on and on about this - hybrid development models simpl= y come with a lot of overhead. I get
> that here many p= eople think that GitHub is the root of all evil, but political preferenc= es aside - it's the
> largest forge in the world by a h= uge margin and I think it provides unique benefits to projects that
<= /div>
> can't be replicated elsewhere. At least not today. <= br>

I think the difficulties are not as great a= s you imagine.  And our
opinions about GitHub are not= relevant if the package is regularly
merged into emacs.gi= t.



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