* AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard @ 2009-11-13 9:06 Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-13 10:09 ` Peter Dyballa ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-13 9:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Fellow Emacsers, due to certain quantum shifts in the space-time-continuum I got a machine with OSX running at home[1]. On that I manually installed Emacs 23.1 and AUCTeX to do some nice LaTeXing. Since I really dislike the original keyboard that came with that computer [2] and since I want to have the keyboard-layout that is printed on the keyboard [3] I plugged a common German keyboard into the USB-port and fetched some keyboard-description file from the Internet [4]. After that many things work as expected. However, whenever I try to type a backslash (AltGr ß on a German Keyboard) Emacs tells me that M-ß is undefined. In fact this counts for all keystrokes involving AltGr. Those of you familiar with German keyboards will know that this makes the following chars unavailable: @\[]{}|~. Try to do some LaTeX-editing without those. I've waded the message-board-sea for hours, mostly finding posts that say one should really try the apple-keyboard and their layout [5] and have now spent 3 evenings trying to find a solution. To no avail. Does anyone in this group have a solution, an url or an idea? Kind Regards, Stefan Footnotes: [1] Boy, if you've been with Linux for >15 years this is hard to take but that's not the story here. [2] And I *don't* want to discuss this like it's been done in numerous messages boards, thank you). After some 20 years of typing you just know what's good for your wrists and what isn't. [3] No discussion either, please. I've been through all that aeons ago. [4] Ridiculous that I can't just switch it, isn't it? [5] Obviously that's the reason for some bitter footnotes here. -- Stefan Kamphausen --- http://www.skamphausen.de a blessed +42 regexp of confusion (weapon in hand) You hit. The format string crumbles and turns to dust. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard 2009-11-13 9:06 AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-13 10:09 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.10632.1258107023.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-11-14 8:16 ` Stefan Monnier 2 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-11-13 10:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Kamphausen; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 13.11.2009 um 10:06 schrieb Stefan Kamphausen: > Does anyone in this group have a solution, an url or an idea? The xmodmap utility will show you the keys defined and the X modifiers set. In a file ~/.xmodmaprc you can change settings and load it into xmodmap as a statement in ~/.xinitrc when X11 is launched ("xmodmap ${HOME}/.xmodmaprc"). The code could be: clear Mod1 keycode 66 = Meta_L add Mod1 = Meta_L The utility xev can give you exact information about a key and X modifiers. -- Mit friedvollen Grüßen Pete Ich bin dafür, die Dinge so weit wie möglich zu vereinfachen. Aber nicht weiter. (Albert Einstein) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
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* Re: AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard [not found] ` <mailman.10632.1258107023.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2009-11-13 10:27 ` Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-13 14:18 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.10641.1258122071.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-13 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi Peter, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: > Am 13.11.2009 um 10:06 schrieb Stefan Kamphausen: > >> Does anyone in this group have a solution, an url or an idea? > > > The xmodmap utility will show you the keys defined and the X modifiers > set. In a file ~/.xmodmaprc you can change settings and load it into > xmodmap as a statement in ~/.xinitrc when X11 is launched ("xmodmap > ${HOME}/.xmodmaprc"). [...] Thanks for that input, I'been carrying a full xmodmap around for years on various Linux-systems. However, I'm under the impression that X11 is nur running. I compiled the native Cocoa-version of Emacs23 (or is Carbon the newer one? Sorry to be fuzzy here). > The utility xev can give you exact information about a key and X > modifiers. Can I just launch X11 and then use xev to examine the keycodes? Will that in any way reflect the situation of the native programs? Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Kamphausen --- http://www.skamphausen.de a blessed +42 regexp of confusion (weapon in hand) You hit. The format string crumbles and turns to dust. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard 2009-11-13 10:27 ` Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-13 14:18 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.10641.1258122071.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-11-13 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Kamphausen; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 13.11.2009 um 11:27 schrieb Stefan Kamphausen: > However, I'm under the impression that X11 is nur running. I compiled > the native Cocoa-version of Emacs23 (or is Carbon the newer one? > Sorry > to be fuzzy here). Could you be a bit more specific? You could describe the way you launch that application – or copy a bit from the buffer which is created when you choose "Send Bug Report…" from the Help menu. BTW, is this Help menu in Emacs' frame or in the menu bar? The X clients can't "delegate" the menu-bar... > >> The utility xev can give you exact information about a key and X >> modifiers. > > Can I just launch X11 and then use xev to examine the keycodes? Of course! > Will that in any way reflect the situation of the native programs? No. You could try to create your own keyboard layout. See for example http://wiki.neo-layout.org/browser/mac_osx/ or http://www.sil.org/ computing/catalog/show_software.asp?id=94. Surely there are more tools to edit the keyboard layout, which is very easy in Mac OS X. You might need Peter Maurer's Key Codes application: http:// www.manytricks.com/keycodes to determine the Mac OS X key codes. -- Mit friedvollen Grüßen Pete Wer nichts zu verbergen hat, hat schon alles verloren. (Juli Zeh) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
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* Re: AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard [not found] ` <mailman.10641.1258122071.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2009-11-13 14:28 ` Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-15 11:42 ` Stefan Kamphausen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-13 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi Peter, thanks for stepping up. Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: > Am 13.11.2009 um 11:27 schrieb Stefan Kamphausen: > >> However, I'm under the impression that X11 is nur running. I compiled >> the native Cocoa-version of Emacs23 (or is Carbon the newer one? >> Sorry >> to be fuzzy here). > > Could you be a bit more specific? You could describe the way you > launch that application – or copy a bit from the buffer which is > created when you choose "Send Bug Report…" from the Help menu. BTW, > is this Help menu in Emacs' frame or in the menu bar? The X clients > can't "delegate" the menu-bar... the weekend is just a few hours away and I think I'll be near that machine again on saturday night. If you allow, I would contact you directly via email and, if some solution comes up, post that here later (just to avoid noise). Of course I will wait for your thumbs up before doing so. >> Will that in any way reflect the situation of the native programs? > > > No. You could try to create your own keyboard layout. See for example > http://wiki.neo-layout.org/browser/mac_osx/ or http://www.sil.org/ > computing/catalog/show_software.asp?id=94. Surely there are more > tools to edit the keyboard layout, which is very easy in Mac OS X. > You might need Peter Maurer's Key Codes application: http:// > www.manytricks.com/keycodes to determine the Mac OS X key codes. I hope I'll find something valuable there. Good, that this is an emacs-centric group whereas all the posts I read were from osx-related sites. I seem to find little valuable information on those. Kind regards, Stefan -- Stefan Kamphausen --- http://www.skamphausen.de a blessed +42 regexp of confusion (weapon in hand) You hit. The format string crumbles and turns to dust. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard [not found] ` <mailman.10641.1258122071.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-11-13 14:28 ` Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-15 11:42 ` Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-15 12:47 ` Peter Dyballa 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-15 11:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes: > Am 13.11.2009 um 11:27 schrieb Stefan Kamphausen: > >> However, I'm under the impression that X11 is nur running. I compiled >> the native Cocoa-version of Emacs23 (or is Carbon the newer one? >> Sorry >> to be fuzzy here). > > Could you be a bit more specific? You could describe the way you > launch that application – I either use an icon in the dock or I start Emacs via a Shell script: cat `which emacs` #!/bin/sh test -x "$emacs" || emacs="$HOME/local/opt/emacs-23.1/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs" test -x "$emacs" || emacs="/usr/bin/emacs" exec "$emacs" ${SSH_CONNECTION:+-nw} ${SCREEN_IN_SSH:+-nw} "$@" Both behave exactly the same. or copy a bit from the buffer which is > created when you choose "Send Bug Report…" from the Help menu. Here you are... In GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i386-apple-darwin9.7.0, NS apple-appkit-949.46) of 2009-08-02 on imac Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.949 configured using `configure '--with-ns'' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: nil value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: nil default-enable-multibyte-characters: t BTW, > is this Help menu in Emacs' frame or in the menu bar? The X clients > can't "delegate" the menu-bar... It's in the menu bar, just like a native OSX application. > >> >>> The utility xev can give you exact information about a key and X >>> modifiers. >> >> Can I just launch X11 and then use xev to examine the keycodes? > > Of course! > >> Will that in any way reflect the situation of the native programs? > > > No. You could try to create your own keyboard layout. See for example > http://wiki.neo-layout.org/browser/mac_osx/ or http://www.sil.org/ > computing/catalog/show_software.asp?id=94. Surely there are more > tools to edit the keyboard layout, which is very easy in Mac OS X. > You might need Peter Maurer's Key Codes application: http:// > www.manytricks.com/keycodes to determine the Mac OS X key codes. Still have to look into those. If I hit AltGr-Backspace and do the C-h l afterwards I see: M-(sharp s) C-h l (I can't insert the real sharp s in this emacs, I currently use to type this post, but it is displayed as a "normal" sharp-s in the help buffer). Another thing I noted: the described behavior occurs with that keyboard layout I loaded from the net as well as with the original osx layout. I toggle those using a little icon in the menubar and applications like e.g. the terminal that shipped with this computer reflect the changes immediately: with the original layout I see a question mark upside-down if I hit AltGr-Backslash but with the custom layout I get a backslash. Funny, that makes no difference in Emacs. xev didn't help either. It reports AltGr as KeyPress event, serial 26, synthetic NO, window 0x600001, root 0x27d, subw 0x0, time 4154597274, (135,83), root:(135,105), state 0x0, keycode 57 (keysym 0x20, space), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 1 bytes: (20) " " XmbLookupString gives 1 bytes: (20) " " XFilterEvent returns: False with the original layout and as KeyPress event, serial 26, synthetic NO, window 0x600001, root 0x27d, subw 0x0, time 4154673256, (86,89), root:(86,111), state 0x0, keycode 69 (keysym 0xff7e, Mode_switch), same_screen YES, XKeysymToKeycode returns keycode: 66 XLookupString gives 0 bytes: XmbLookupString gives 0 bytes: XFilterEvent returns: False with the custom layout. However, since X11 was launched when I started xev that's probably not releveant anyway. Well, that's it. I'm running out of ideas what else to try (other than compiling Emacs from CVS maybe). Is this considered a bug, shall I sent that report? Kind regards, Stefan -- Stefan Kamphausen --- http://www.skamphausen.de a blessed +42 regexp of confusion (weapon in hand) You hit. The format string crumbles and turns to dust. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard 2009-11-15 11:42 ` Stefan Kamphausen @ 2009-11-15 12:47 ` Peter Dyballa 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-11-15 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Kamphausen; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 15.11.2009 um 12:42 schrieb Stefan Kamphausen: > #!/bin/sh > > test -x "$emacs" || > emacs="$HOME/local/opt/emacs-23.1/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/ > Emacs" > test -x "$emacs" || emacs="/usr/bin/emacs" > > exec "$emacs" ${SSH_CONNECTION:+-nw} ${SCREEN_IN_SSH:+-nw} "$@" For me Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs has problems to interpret and receive all command line arguments... > In GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i386-apple-darwin9.7.0, NS apple-appkit-949.46) > of 2009-08-02 on imac > Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.949 > configured using `configure '--with-ns'' >> is this Help menu in Emacs' frame or in the menu bar? The X >> clients >> can't "delegate" the menu-bar... > > It's in the menu bar, just like a native OSX application. So it's the Aqua or NS or GNUStep/OPENSTEP "Emacs.app." > > If I hit AltGr-Backspace and do the C-h l afterwards I see: > M-(sharp s) C-h l > (I can't insert the real sharp s in this emacs, I currently use to > type > this post, but it is displayed as a "normal" sharp-s in the help > buffer). Have you tried Character Palette (Zeichenpalette)? > > Another thing I noted: the described behavior occurs with that > keyboard > layout I loaded from the net as well as with the original osx > layout. I > toggle those using a little icon in the menubar and applications like > e.g. the terminal that shipped with this computer reflect the changes > immediately: with the original layout I see a question mark upside- > down > if I hit AltGr-Backslash but with the custom layout I get a backslash. > Funny, that makes no difference in Emacs. > > xev didn't help either. Exactly. Xev and X11 are not Aqua. > Is this considered a bug, shall I sent that report? If, then to Apple. It's obviously Mac OS X which does not produce the proper key events and has no idea of the "modifiers" of your keyboard. But it's also Emacs.app which has problems with keys of non- English keyboards. -- Mit friedvollen Grüßen Pete We need a president who's fluent in at least one language. – Buck Henry ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard 2009-11-13 9:06 AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-13 10:09 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.10632.1258107023.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2009-11-14 8:16 ` Stefan Monnier 2 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2009-11-14 8:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > However, whenever I try to type a backslash (AltGr ß on a German > Keyboard) Emacs tells me that M-ß is undefined. You may want to check with C-h l to see what Emacs really receives. most likely that won't help, but it's worth a try, Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-11-15 12:47 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-11-13 9:06 AltGr with Emacs 23 on OSX and German keyboard Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-13 10:09 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.10632.1258107023.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-11-13 10:27 ` Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-13 14:18 ` Peter Dyballa [not found] ` <mailman.10641.1258122071.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2009-11-13 14:28 ` Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-15 11:42 ` Stefan Kamphausen 2009-11-15 12:47 ` Peter Dyballa 2009-11-14 8:16 ` Stefan Monnier
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