bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Drew Adams]

Dunno whether this is actually a bug, but it seems odd.

In this node you find this text:

 Texts.  A copy of the license is included in the section entitled ``GNU
 Free Documentation License''.

Should the `` and '' perhaps be rendered differently - perhaps as curly
double quotes?

In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2019-08-29
Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362
Configured using:
 `configure --without-dbus --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32
 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=-O2 -static -g3''

bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Dunno whether this is actually a bug, but it seems odd.
>
> In this node you find this text:
>
>  Texts.  A copy of the license is included in the section entitled ``GNU
>  Free Documentation License''.
>
> Should the `` and '' perhaps be rendered differently - perhaps as curly
> double quotes?

Agreed, they should probably be marked as the other instances of ``text
quoted like this''.

But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?

bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 11:53:02 -0700
> 
> But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?

It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.

bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Drew Adams]

> > But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?
> 
> It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.

OK, not a bug.  Does that mean that this is what
we want users to see, as the final rendering of
this particular text?  If so, I wonder what the
reason for that is.

Here's an occurrence of ``...'' that I think is
understandable, in (emacs) `Inserting Text':

 In addition, in some contexts, if you type a quotation using grave
 accent and apostrophe '`like this'', it is converted to a form 'like
 this' using single quotation marks, even without 'C-x 8' commands.
 Similarly, typing a quotation '``like this''' using double grave accent
 and apostrophe converts it to a form "like this" using double quotation
 marks.  *Note Quotation Marks::.

And this one, in (emacs) `Org Authoring':

     #+begin_quote
     ``This is a quote.''
     #+end_quote

And this, in (emacs) `TeX Editing':

 In TeX, the character '"' is not normally used; instead, quotations
 begin with '``' and end with ''''.  TeX mode therefore binds the '"' key
 to the 'tex-insert-quote' command.  This inserts '``' after whitespace
 or an open brace, '"' after a backslash, and '''' after any other
 character.

 As a special exception, if you type '"' when the text before point is
 either '``' or '''', Emacs replaces that preceding text with a single
 '"' character.  You can therefore type '""' to insert '"', should you
 ever need to do so.  (You can also use 'C-q "' to insert this
 character.)

But I don't understand the reported case, unless
"in a document" means only some particular kind
of source document that will be handled in a way
that transforms ``...'' into something else.

bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>
>> Dunno whether this is actually a bug, but it seems odd.
>>
>> In this node you find this text:
>>
>>  Texts.  A copy of the license is included in the section entitled ``GNU
>>  Free Documentation License''.
>>
>> Should the `` and '' perhaps be rendered differently - perhaps as curly
>> double quotes?
>
> Agreed, they should probably be marked as the other instances of ``text
> quoted like this''.
>
> But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.

So should we replace this with “ and ” or should we close this as
wontfix?

bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 19:07:28 -0600
> Cc: 44211@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com
> 
> > But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.
> 
> So should we replace this with “ and ” or should we close this as
> wontfix?

This is a legal blurb we have in all our manuals, so the format there
should be identical and coordinated with the FSF.

But wait a minute: I don't think I understand the bug report anymore,
because of 2 reasons:

  . the Texinfo source uses @quotation, not @example, so I'm unsure
    why I mentioned @example in my response, likely a mistake on my
    part;
  . more importantly, the text in the Info file uses “..” quoting

So I now tend to think that Drew was looking at an old version of Info
manuals, which were produced by makeinfo before we started using UTF-8
encoding as the default output encoding of our manuals, and that is
the reason for the original issue.

If I'm right, the bug should be closed as being fixed long ago.

bug#44211: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Drew Adams]

>   . more importantly, the text in the Info file uses “..” quoting
> 
> So I now tend to think that Drew was looking at an old version of Info
> manuals, which were produced by makeinfo before we started using UTF-8
> encoding as the default output encoding of our manuals, and that is
> the reason for the original issue.
> 
> If I'm right, the bug should be closed as being fixed long ago.

I just checked, with emacs -Q, in 27.1.

Go to node GNU Free Documentation License.
Scroll to the bottom of the node, or search
for Addendum.

The indented block of text after "just after
the title page" has this as its last sentence:

 A copy of the license is included in the section
 entitled ``GNU Free Documentation License''.

As that block is a quotation, perhaps this is
intended and needed, which is why I said in the
bug report that I don't know whether there's a
bug here.

bug#44211: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> CC: "44211@debbugs.gnu.org" <44211@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:41:55 +0000
> 
> I just checked, with emacs -Q, in 27.1.
> 
> Go to node GNU Free Documentation License.
> Scroll to the bottom of the node, or search
> for Addendum.
> 
> The indented block of text after "just after
> the title page" has this as its last sentence:
> 
>  A copy of the license is included in the section
>  entitled ``GNU Free Documentation License''.
> 
> As that block is a quotation, perhaps this is
> intended and needed, which is why I said in the
> bug report that I don't know whether there's a
> bug here.

That's the GNU FDL, we cannot change even a comma there.

bug#44211: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Stefan Kangas]

tags 44211 wontfix notabug
close 44211 28.1
thanks

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>> CC: "44211@debbugs.gnu.org" <44211@debbugs.gnu.org>
>> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:41:55 +0000
>>
>> I just checked, with emacs -Q, in 27.1.
>>
>> Go to node GNU Free Documentation License.
>> Scroll to the bottom of the node, or search
>> for Addendum.
>>
>> The indented block of text after "just after
>> the title page" has this as its last sentence:
>>
>>  A copy of the license is included in the section
>>  entitled ``GNU Free Documentation License''.
>>
>> As that block is a quotation, perhaps this is
>> intended and needed, which is why I said in the
>> bug report that I don't know whether there's a
>> bug here.
>
> That's the GNU FDL, we cannot change even a comma there.

OK.  This is hardly worth this much time and energy in any case.

I've added the tags wontfix and notabug, so anyone can pick their
favourite.  I'm consequently closing this bug.

bug#44211: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

[Drew Adams]

> That's the GNU FDL, we cannot change even a comma there.

OK.  I thought that might be the case.
Thanks for confirming and closing.