From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Berndl, Klaus" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: AW: AW: delete-selection-mode Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:25:24 +0100 Message-ID: <7697A57B1AD9104F993CDF6A5B69430C0A70E50879@CORPMAIL08.corp.capgemini.com> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org>,<874okf8dep.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <7697A57B1AD9104F993CDF6A5B69430C0A70E50872@CORPMAIL08.corp.capgemini.com>, <4BA0CDF9.40707@online.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268832345 8831 80.91.229.12 (17 Mar 2010 13:25:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:25:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Andreas Roehler Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 17 14:25:40 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrtFj-0000V1-7R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:25:39 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54014 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NrtFi-0000eM-H3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:25:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NrtFc-0000e7-Uh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:25:32 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=39800 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NrtFb-0000dx-Ia for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:25:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrtFZ-00058F-FB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:25:31 -0400 Original-Received: from spfdefra01.capgemini.com ([194.11.253.100]:61911) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrtFZ-000580-5n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:25:29 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,657,1262559600"; d="scan'208";a="272257897" Original-Received: from unknown (HELO corpmx12.corp.capgemini.com) ([205.223.229.53]) by IRDEFRA-C650-01-D2-incoming.capgemini.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 17 Mar 2010 14:25:25 +0100 Original-Received: from CORPMAIL08.corp.capgemini.com ([205.223.229.25]) by CORPMX12 ([205.223.229.53]) with mapi; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:25:24 +0100 Thread-Topic: AW: delete-selection-mode Thread-Index: AcrFzsrnZkv/zi6ZQuCAXB7Ug86eDQABK/jo In-Reply-To: <4BA0CDF9.40707@online.de> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: de-DE, en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122087 Archived-At: >Why not take occasion, telling users at the very beginning about the diffe= rence between >Emacs and common usage, about the advantage having delsel-mode off. >People who are not interested in this kind of reflections don't need Emacs= . I completely disagree here - If people need emacs, i.e. if they can take (m= ore or less great) advantages from using Emacs (or switching to Emacs) depe= nds not if they are willing to adopt the emacs-way-of-live or with other wo= rds: ...depends not if they are willing to throw away their well known and = liked ways of basic(!) interaction with a text-writing-tool. The advantages= of Emacs are not its sometimes just special but also sometimes really cryp= tic ways of basic and fundamental text-editing but: - very powerful text-based directory- and file-handling as offered by dired - very powerful integration of (recursive) greps - in general: the possibilities to handle text-based documents in quite any= imaginable way - the way do deal with a lot of programing languages always in the same way= (one editor/environment for all languages) - some others IMHO this has nothing to do with these basics how to deal with selections..= . Why to scare Emacs-newbies with these standards-interfering Emacs-approac= hes and therefore preventing potential new users from becoming acquainted w= ith these very USP-features i mentioned above...These features above would = convince new users that Emacs could be really more powerful than other edit= ors not another way to deal with selections... Therefore my vote for the standards as defaults... Best regards Klaus >The other may notice just here, they are right ________________________________________ Von: Andreas Roehler [andreas.roehler@online.de] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. M=E4rz 2010 13:41 An: Berndl, Klaus Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Betreff: Re: AW: delete-selection-mode Berndl, Klaus wrote: > Since Emacs editing interferes with typical editing commands today my vot= e is "yes". > > Of course this is a little bit provoking, so please do not feel offened! > > But IMHO the following is fact: Today Emacs has very strong competitors c= oncerning "what is the most effective way to code my programs" - a lot of (= commercial or free or open source) so called IDEs have adopted some of the = pure editing power of Emacs but offer on top some power Emacs still lacks t= oday, as for example real, fast and powerful refactoring, code navigation a= nd other goodies you need much more for effective Code-development than som= e certain Emacs-specials. Well, with integrating CEDET Emacs has began to g= o the right direction but far away from the goal. Fact is, a lot of people = which do not develop for open source but are employee at IT-companies devel= op with commercial IDEs cause of the advantages above. But this is not the = only reason: Currently there are some quite standards concerning look and f= eel and also interaction with an editor/IDE. If these standard are the best= approaches is not the question, we have simply to accept that there are th= ese standards p eople expect when working with text-editing. And dealing with selections is= one of these standards and it make NO sense to fight against it. IMHO Emac= s must drop the inhibition threshold a lot of people still have to engage = in Emacs. But for these Emacs must go out from its corner especially concer= ning fundamental and basic interactions of the user with its tool. many man= y user wants to go well known paths here. If this inhibition threshold fal= ls then Emacs newbies would be more willing to dig into Emacs and to explor= e the delicacies and "unique selling points" Emacs can offer compared with = other IDEs... > > Take a look at gimp, one of the most successfull open source piece of cod= e (well, a really big piece ;-): Gimp's success grows a.a. because gimp off= ers that the user can owrk with gimp in the quite same way as with photosho= p - whereas the latter one is a defacto-standard in image editing. next gim= p 2.8. will offer a single-window mode simply because people expect it! > > Emacs should offer what people want and expect if it wants to have the ch= ance to competite with other powerful IDEs. > > To make a long story short: Emacs is a great peace of software and i like= it very much (otherwise i would not have developed ECB). And it has really= earned the chance to "win" more users, also from the "other side"... Fot t= his the default setting of Emacs should follow the defacto standards. And a= ll Emacs old-timers should have an easy way to go back to the Emacs-mode to= interact with their editor...maybe Emacs could display an hint for new use= rs that there are more - and maybe even better ways - to interact with Emac= s - and how to deal with that but the default should be the standard - not = the Emacs standard but the "world" standards. > > best regards > Klaus > ________________________________________ Hi Klaus, thanks for this comprehensive statement. Why not take occasion, telling users at the very beginning about the differ= ence between Emacs and common usage, about the advantage having delsel-mode off. People who are not interested in this kind of reflections don't need Emacs. The other may notice just here, they are right. Would introduce this item right into the first tutorial. Andreas -- https://code.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/=