From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Berndl, Klaus" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: AW: delete-selection-mode Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:23:38 +0100 Message-ID: <7697A57B1AD9104F993CDF6A5B69430C0A70E50872@CORPMAIL08.corp.capgemini.com> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org>,<874okf8dep.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268828694 26726 80.91.229.12 (17 Mar 2010 12:24:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:24:54 +0000 (UTC) To: David Kastrup , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 17 13:24:50 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrsIE-0000L0-87 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:24:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37603 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NrsID-0001Lb-GE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:24:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NrsI8-0001JZ-9r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:24:04 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=45041 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NrsI6-0001GS-Mc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:24:04 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrsI5-0004Gw-IK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:24:02 -0400 Original-Received: from spfdefra01.capgemini.com ([194.11.253.100]:39789) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrsI1-0004Ab-71; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:23:57 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,657,1262559600"; d="scan'208";a="272219138" Original-Received: from unknown (HELO corpmx13.corp.capgemini.com) ([205.223.229.59]) by IRDEFRA-C650-01-D2-incoming.capgemini.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 17 Mar 2010 13:23:51 +0100 Original-Received: from CORPMAIL08.corp.capgemini.com ([205.223.229.25]) by CORPMX13 ([205.223.229.59]) with mapi; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:23:39 +0100 Thread-Topic: delete-selection-mode Thread-Index: AcrFuuODi1akvKfiSVmehL+o2egQ7gADZGEL In-Reply-To: <874okf8dep.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: de-DE, en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122084 Archived-At: Since Emacs editing interferes with typical editing commands today my vote = is "yes". Of course this is a little bit provoking, so please do not feel offened! But IMHO the following is fact: Today Emacs has very strong competitors con= cerning "what is the most effective way to code my programs" - a lot of (co= mmercial or free or open source) so called IDEs have adopted some of the pu= re editing power of Emacs but offer on top some power Emacs still lacks tod= ay, as for example real, fast and powerful refactoring, code navigation and= other goodies you need much more for effective Code-development than some = certain Emacs-specials. Well, with integrating CEDET Emacs has began to go = the right direction but far away from the goal. Fact is, a lot of people wh= ich do not develop for open source but are employee at IT-companies develop= with commercial IDEs cause of the advantages above. But this is not the on= ly reason: Currently there are some quite standards concerning look and fee= l and also interaction with an editor/IDE. If these standard are the best a= pproaches is not the question, we have simply to accept that there are thes= e standards people expect when working with text-editing. And dealing with = selections is one of these standards and it make NO sense to fight against = it. IMHO Emacs must drop the inhibition threshold a lot of people still ha= ve to engage in Emacs. But for these Emacs must go out from its corner espe= cially concerning fundamental and basic interactions of the user with its t= ool. many many user wants to go well known paths here. If this inhibition = threshold falls then Emacs newbies would be more willing to dig into Emacs = and to explore the delicacies and "unique selling points" Emacs can offer c= ompared with other IDEs... Take a look at gimp, one of the most successfull open source piece of code = (well, a really big piece ;-): Gimp's success grows a.a. because gimp offer= s that the user can owrk with gimp in the quite same way as with photoshop = - whereas the latter one is a defacto-standard in image editing. next gimp = 2.8. will offer a single-window mode simply because people expect it! Emacs should offer what people want and expect if it wants to have the chan= ce to competite with other powerful IDEs. To make a long story short: Emacs is a great peace of software and i like i= t very much (otherwise i would not have developed ECB). And it has really e= arned the chance to "win" more users, also from the "other side"... Fot thi= s the default setting of Emacs should follow the defacto standards. And all= Emacs old-timers should have an easy way to go back to the Emacs-mode to i= nteract with their editor...maybe Emacs could display an hint for new users= that there are more - and maybe even better ways - to interact with Emacs = - and how to deal with that but the default should be the standard - not th= e Emacs standard but the "world" standards. best regards Klaus ________________________________________ Von: emacs-devel-bounces+klaus.berndl=3Dsdm.de@gnu.org [emacs-devel-bounces= +klaus.berndl=3Dsdm.de@gnu.org] im Auftrag von David Kastrup [dak@gnu.org] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. M=E4rz 2010 11:12 An: emacs-devel@gnu.org Betreff: Re: delete-selection-mode Juri Linkov writes: >>> delete-selection-mode would be the default too, that's what everything >>> on the desktop does... > > I agree with Richard that the primary concern is doing what is useful > for newcomers. One of the most frequent questions they ask is how to do > what most other editors do - to replace selected text with a typed > character or with yanked text, and to delete the region by typing > without copying it to the kill-ring. > > What they are asking for is delete-selection-mode, > but they can't find it in the documentation because > the feature name says nothing to beginners, and > they expect to take this functionality for granted. > > Some recent examples of such problems: > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help/60992 > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help/45623 > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help/42402 > > Is that reason enough to enable delete-selection-mode by default? Since it interferes with Emacs-typical editing command sequences, my vote is "no". The question you appear concerned with is more "how can we make beginners shut up" rather than "how can we make beginners more productive with Emacs". Perhaps we should offer a submenu in "Help" about "Judicious differences to other editors", with rationales, an introducting section saying "Some default behaviors we considered useful enough to make them different from other editors, so we recommend that you try to get acquainted with the suggested mode of operation before deciding against it", maybe even with clickable links to customize-variable where you can turn some feature like delete-selection-mode on (and off again!). We could even go as far as to mark some customizable variables as "voteable" and have a mechanism where you can send all of your personal voteable settings to emacs-votes@gnu.org. -- David Kastrup=