From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 15:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <768d3caa-8eed-457b-90e1-143d18020201@default> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <06bcddd4-6991-e4f7-e944-93de14af263d@yandex.ru> <87h7wjsd8o.fsf@red-bean.com> <20897f01-122d-7f91-eac2-70f5ad75796f@yandex.ru> <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> <874ksglvsd.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="48674"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Karl Fogel , Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 16 00:42:22 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZj26-000CZn-EI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/15 18:41:39 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250435 Archived-At: > > > * Tell newcomers up front that Emacs really starts to be worth it > > > * after a few years, not a few weeks. > > > >I don't believe that is true. It is an exaggeration. >=20 > Well, it's not a rhetorical exaggeration, in any case. That is, it is > my actual belief, based on observation. (It could be wrong, of course, > but just to be clear, it wasn't an exaggeration for the sake of > effect.) It all depends on what one interprets "really" as. I agree with you, for "_REALLY!_". I agree with RMS for "really", as in you get some real worth immediately. But overall, I agree with the point you were making, which I think is that the more you invest with Emacs the more it's worth it, and if you invest only a tiny amount (e.g. you just started using it) then you might not see much of what it really has to offer. Trying to pack such a message into just "really" doesn't work, in general. > Different people will naturally learn at different rates, depending on > their aptitude and environment. The best environment is to have an > Emacs expert nearby in person, who can occasionally watch the newcomer > edit and point out faster ways to do things, point out ways to ask > Emacs for help, etc. But even in that kind of environment, with a > talented newcomer, I don't think I've seen it take less than > approximately a year to get to the point where they are doing better > with Emacs than they would have done with some less extensible, less > capable text editor. >=20 > > > * Also tell them about the ways in which Emacs may frustrate them > > > * along the way, and explain that those frustrations are common > > > * and are sometimes inevitably entangled with the same things that > > > * make Emacs winning in the long term. > > > >This sounds like a recipe for discouraging people from starting. >=20 > To me it is just realistic, and if I were a newcomer I'd want to be > informed of it. I agree, but I'm not sure how best to pass that message. There are surely _some_ newcomers who might not get that Emacs is a fine instrument. There _is_ a lot to learn, to make fine music. But yes, you can get some melody out of it without much practice. I do think that newbies should be encouraged, not discouraged. But they should also know that Emacs is like a piano or a lathe - there's more to it than meets the eye. > Teaching newcomers how to use these accidental stumbles to their > advantage is important, and I always try to do so. But I find it helps > to let them know that it's going to happen often -- that Emacs will > react in unexpected ways and surprise them, and that persisting through > that initial fog of unexpected reactions is worth the effort. Unexpected in terms of naive, uninformed expectations. Which is why any intro/tutorial needs to stress the importance of Emacs help/doc. There is little that is unexpected in the sense of unpredictable or undocumented. > A perfect analogy is manual ("stick") transmission cars versus > automatic transmission cars. A stick car is harder for a newcomer to > drive, but gives an experienced user more control than she would > otherwise have. An automatic transmission car is easier for a > newcomer, but frustrating for the expert because it limits (a bit) what > she can do. >=20 > Does this mean that no one learns to drive stick? Of course not. Some > people do so by choice -- they make a conscious investment, made with > the understanding that driving will be *harder* for a while before > there is any discernable payoff. But they are willing to make that > choice because others told them how it would be worth it. It's not > something the user would find out from reading the manual for the car, > though. The analogy is pretty good (not perfect). The last sentence doesn't correspond to Emacs, though, I think. You _can_ learn Emacs by reading its manuals and its help (`C-h'). Asking Emacs is a good way to learn. Maybe not as good as the expert-over-your-shoulder method you cited, but pretty good.