From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23798: 25.0.90; Underscore for emphasis in Info? Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7648aec5-f939-4da3-8d4c-9ea03799c0db@default> References: <<>> <<<8337o9aogg.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<3129ea6b-50bf-48e6-b3d0-b180828dfc5c@default>> <<83wpll8bbi.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1466353534 25814 80.91.229.3 (19 Jun 2016 16:25:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:25:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 23798@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 19 18:25:21 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfX9-00017t-Mg for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:25:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39335 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfX8-0001wz-PS for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:25:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52522) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfX1-0001sq-OA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:25:08 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfWw-0002Oi-NM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:25:07 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:34240) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfWw-0002Oe-Kl for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:25:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfWw-0003qq-II for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:25:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:25:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23798 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23798-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23798.146635345114733 (code B ref 23798); Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:25:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23798) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jun 2016 16:24:11 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46577 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfW7-0003pZ-4C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:24:11 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:42350) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEfW5-0003pL-2L for 23798@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:24:09 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u5JGO2x0006103 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:24:02 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5JGO19O029297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:24:02 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5JGO0S6025396; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:24:00 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83wpll8bbi.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:119779 Archived-At: > > Is there any other kind of emphasis that is used? >=20 > Yes, there's @strong, rendered as *foo*. I see. I suspected that, so I searched for it (in the Emacs and Elisp manuals). I did not find any matches that would seem to reflect that. And I did find _lots_ of matches that instead mean something else, such as a buffer name: *Messages* (with and without enclosing single quotes - with quotes is not problematic). So I don't think it is very feasible to try to render *...* using, say, ... with a face `info-strong' (e.g. bold by default). I think trying to do that would be too problematic. It is unfortunate that Info "renders" what is clear markup, e.g. @strong, by something that is not markup and not clearly notational, and so is easily confused with ordinary text. If @strong were "rendered" as, say, **...**, the risk of confusion would be greatly reduced. (Is something like that a possibility, or is this "rendering" a given?) As it stands now, the case for fixing _..._ for single words is reasonable, I think, but I don't think that's the case for *...*. Maybe you have a better suggestion? If you decide to do nothing wrt this enhancement request, perhaps you would at least consider to have the Info help, for Info that is displayed by Emacs, include a "notation" section that tells users that "_..._" is emphasis and "*...*" is strong emphasis. We already have node (info) `Help-Inv', which is along the same lines, but the notation is not described anywhere, AFAICT.=20 Whether or not we add a section for notation in general, if we apply a patch such as I proposed, it might help to also point out in `Help-Inv' that turning on `visible-mode' shows the underscores that actually surround emphasized text. IOW, `M-x visible-mode' to turn it on shows emphasized text in `Help-Inv' as "_always_" and "_default_" (with the words emphasized using face `italic' by default). The main problem this report points to is that these notational things are not introduced/mentioned anywhere. There should be some place where the Info notation is introduced. (Yes, few readers will ever come across such a notation description, but it would still be better to have it than not to have it, IMO.) BTW, I see that (info) `Help-]' includes "_at the same level_" and "_regardless of level_": multiple emphasized words. These phrases would not be fontified using the patch I included, which acts only on single words. On the other hand, since `visible-mode' can be used to show hidden `_', maybe it would be OK to use a regexp that highlights words possibly separated by whitespace? IOW, it is very easy to compensate for improper hiding of `_', just by turning on `visible-mode'. But (a) most users won't know about `visible-mode' and (b) more importantly, they won't know whether something is hidden or not, except by noticing that some text has been emphasized (which is not super obvious with face `italic'). I fear that most users would be misled by this.