From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Geoffrey Teale Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Debian's idiosyncratic complexification of Emacs Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:11:45 +0200 Message-ID: <758ED2B7-1F24-447C-B155-6A4C9659B7D7@member.fsf.org> References: <87skug6tq5.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4eb0089f0807111345h13eccdds9b2cf43370b94074@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807121340x5e26f6dbve03ef50b238f3a3a@mail.gmail.com> <87k5fph5rh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080713214648.GB1076@muc.de> <487A783B.7060603@gmail.com> <20080713232635.GD1076@muc.de> <85od51id2t.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20080714204242.GH6711@volo.donarmstrong.com> <20080714223059.GG3445@muc.de> <8763r858dx.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87prpgrm7i.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1216107951 21817 80.91.229.12 (15 Jul 2008 07:45:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:45:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , "Stephen J. Turnbull" , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Miles Bader Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 15 09:46:38 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KIfF0-0004Gv-So for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:46:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47379 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KIfE8-0005aC-M6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:45:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KIfE4-0005a7-Rz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:45:32 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KIfE0-0005Zr-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:45:31 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54756 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KIfE0-0005Zm-FX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:45:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:45533) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KIfDz-0000On-PK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:45:28 -0400 Original-Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.184]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KIehV-0002Q8-NH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:11:54 -0400 Original-Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c7so1469954nfi.26 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:11:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:cc:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:x-mailer:sender; bh=dvE5vD4qqS1Uimdoxum8GPEpl43g8VwHHZpm+0o5YV8=; b=isk/bFFDHuXQHIkArGIGOqO3dYfiIlygScBRFE5kq6D7P+m0r+b+2GE0P1TuSqNHME y+FfCHGcA8fO4/lKmFIvjPqIfMexytws9W5SyEtKj2v2GmTpynpetFHYrPxydiMotWKO em775lAmUB9FtI4tjKq3Z+HS1iY39AekKO9Xk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :x-mailer:sender; b=lWYfbbbUSu9ioMIGzfeXCAWo7iy54f6+t7Vub6VZnCNmGtZDMJeH+TD5y+DJyX3M0s OLbCVJMBZ8mmmVdHuxLYA5TFv/mh6/SkWUtk746slu1wnQqcNFkyV2KpUt3JQlKWant7 c2lrOAgUhfk1cp4uY/R1MCxGS1OJ/5IKKnEJ8= Original-Received: by 10.210.58.17 with SMTP id g17mr9685623eba.190.1216105911518; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?192.168.0.102? ( [88.217.187.54]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p10sm2428650gvf.7.2008.07.15.00.11.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:11:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87prpgrm7i.fsf@catnip.gol.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:100724 Archived-At: On Jul 15, 2008, at 3:05 AM, Miles Bader wrote: > "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: >> N.B. I come not to praise the Debian Emacs Policy, but to give it its >> due: it's a reasonable compromise for the vast majority of users of >> Emacsen. > > My impression is that debian's emacs _policy_ is more or less OK, and > it's a good thing they have one, but the last time I bothered to =20 > really > look, the code implementing it was a huge mess. I asked about it then > on debian-emacsen, and the basic response was "we don't really > understand it either". > > I hope it's better these days... Whilst we are on the subject, for a large part of the last five years =20= I have had to work with Debian and Debian based distributions and I =20 quickly learned to simply not install the Debianised versions of GNU =20 Emacs and install from source myself - particularly if I was =20 interested in using Emacs 22 (and now 23) as the Debian packages were =20= typically less stable. Moreover I found that start up times for =20 emacs on Debian are typically slow. On a personal note - I find the idea of subverting the norms of an =20 application to reduce usability in a distribution, not increase it. =20 Especially where the tool in question (Emacs) is intended for a =20 technical audience. I am certain that the Debian set up is there with the best of =20 intentions (just like their Common LISP setup), but nothing has made =20 me more frustrated in a GNU/Linux distribution than the Emacs setup =20 under debian, and anyone of my colleagues at my last employer we =20 testify to that :) --=20 Geoffrey Teale Software and Technology Consultant, M=FCnchen tealeg@member.fsf.org