From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Xah Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: What does 'run' do in cperl-mode? Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Message-ID: <721790c4-d676-488f-a8da-463e70b4233c@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> References: <0ded5ecd-f5f6-4a8e-9d19-f61bf0401022@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <86hcad9ar4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <0bb45e96-f9f3-4451-a457-004bb5930c76@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <927b0c4a-3de2-4be5-b86a-7ffacc4d718e@v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <88821130-f989-49ac-b8b1-e3cb2f5c5271@1g2000pre.googlegroups.com> <880cfe65-c525-46f7-a2e7-f76aa1168015@i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <1633a503-c4b6-4e33-8ba3-07c518fed27f@r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217392902 14607 80.91.229.12 (30 Jul 2008 04:41:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:41:42 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 30 06:42:31 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KO3W6-0000cH-0x for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 06:42:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49404 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KO3VB-00077M-L6 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:41:29 -0400 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 152 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.6.97.120 Original-X-Trace: posting.google.com 1217390126 18951 127.0.0.1 (30 Jul 2008 03:55:26 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:55:26 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com; posting-host=24.6.97.120; posting-account=bRPKjQoAAACxZsR8_VPXCX27T2YcsyMA User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; en) AppleWebKit/525.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Safari/525.22, gzip(gfe), gzip(gfe) Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:160701 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:56049 Archived-At: On Jul 29, 8:34 pm, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From:Xah > > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:16:16 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > =E2=80=A2 Universally understood > > > > So is Meta. > > > Huh? Are you out of your mind Eli? > > Not a very nice thing to say. Are you out of arguments yet? > > > this can be easily verified though. Go stand on a street in downtown. > > Meta doesn't need to be understood by anyone downtown, just by Emacs > users. The argument is not about whether Meta is understood by Emac users. One of my argument for emacs to adopt the =E2=80=9CAlt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80= =BA=E2=80=9D notation is that this notation is universally understood, and i explained that this is because 95% of Windows+Linux market share, as well as their use of PC keyboards, which has maybe 99.99% market share. > > > > =E2=80=A2 Identical To Key's Label > > > > Only on some keyboards. > > > Huh? Are you serious or are you joking?? > > > I have a keyboard gallery here: > >http://xahlee.org/emacs/keyboards.html > > > which includes several picts of different PC keyboards. > > Not all keyboards in the world are PC keyboards. The argument is not about whether all keyboards in the world are PC keyboards. The point here is that the notation =E2=80=9CAlt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2= =80=9D used a label that appears on PC keyboards, the Alt. And PC keyboard has some 99% of market share. I wrote: =E2=80=A2 Identical To Key's Label You retort: Only on some keyboards. That's not reasonable. > > > > =E2=80=A2 Meta is Alt in practice > > > > Only on some keyboards. > > > Huh? I'm talking about Emacs's default binding for emacs running in > > major OSes (Windows, OSX, Linux). On Windows and Linux it's Alt. On > > Apple computers in OSX with Apple's keyboard, it's Alt in Aquamac, Cmd > > in Carbon Emacs. > > Again, this is not all. You have seen too few systems, and thus your > conclusions are skewed. GNU/Linux, for example, does not run only on > Intel machines with PC keyboards. Right, but however, emacs are run today on Windows and Linux and Mac, and perhaps 99.99% of emacs users today uses one of these OSes. > > > > =E2=80=A2 Keyboards don't have Meta key today > > > > Yes, they do, at least some of them. > > > Did you read what i wrote? > > Did you read what I wrote? Yes. > > > > So i consider it more as bug report now i think about it. Why? Beca= use > > > > emacs failed to update itself when its keyboard under lisp machines > > > > become obsolete. > > > > You have your history wrong: Meta came from old Sun keyboards, where > > > it was marked with a diamond. > > > Are you saying, that the Sun Microsystem's keyboard precedes Lisp > > Machine's keyboard? > > No, I'm saying that Meta doesn't come from Lisp machines. Where it came from? And how's the history of Meta is related in this argument specifically? > > Do you have any detail, reference at all? > > Yes, but no time to write it all. Very funny. > > > > So back to emacs.... there was CUA mode. I don't know the history o= f > > > > the mode, but it is my guess that mode has been floating out there = for > > > > quite some time before it is part of emacs. I think there must be h= uge > > > > resistance back then, even today, the use of it is somewhat > > > > controversial, and geekers are shy to admit they use it because tha= t > > > > somehow makes them =E2=80=9CMicrosoft Kiddies=E2=80=9D. > > > > You are wrong. As long as a mode is optional, there's normally no > > > resistance at all (assuming that it's written cleanly and according t= o > > > Emacs coding style and standards). > > > So? what is your point? > > That Emacs embraces change and progress, contrary to your remarks. What change and progress? What remark? You need to be specific and detailed to argue convincingly. I gave detailed answers or defense of my point of view. > > > I hope the ratio of your lines to mine will not be so large next time= , > > > though, or else I'd need to cut my losses and stop. I will never hav= e > > > enough time even to read everything you managed to dump on me in > > > response to just 11 lines. > > > Let's not start slurs ok? > > Look who's talking. You just accused me of being insane, not reading > your messages and what's not. I didn't call you insane or any insult. The closest i said was =E2=80=9CHuh= ? Are you out of your mind Eli?=E2=80=9D followed by nice explanation on the issue. That phrase is a way to indiacte my surprise of what you are saying. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84