From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Xah Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Can anybody tell me how to send HTML-format mail in gnus Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 05:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Message-ID: <71e955a3-ba14-4141-8d46-55c3f138c3f8@r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com> References: <877iav5s49.fsf@163.com> <86hc9yc5sj.fsf@timbral.net> <877iat7udd.fsf@163.com> <87fxphcsxi.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> <8504ddd4-5e3b-4ed5-bf77-aa9cce81b59a@1g2000pre.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1218199305 5459 80.91.229.12 (8 Aug 2008 12:41:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 12:41:45 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 08 14:42:36 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KRRIc-0000Wb-U7 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:42:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57285 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KRRHg-0000bx-5k for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 08:41:32 -0400 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 137 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.6.97.120 Original-X-Trace: posting.google.com 1218198943 25708 127.0.0.1 (8 Aug 2008 12:35:43 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 12:35:43 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com; posting-host=24.6.97.120; posting-account=bRPKjQoAAACxZsR8_VPXCX27T2YcsyMA User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; en) AppleWebKit/525.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Safari/525.22, gzip(gfe), gzip(gfe) Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:160959 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:56304 Archived-At: On Aug 7, 9:59 pm, Sivaram Neelakantan wrote: > Xah writes: > > Tim X wrote: > > =C2=ABIn general, HTML in mail messages is a bad thing.=C2=BB > > > HTML in email is a very good thing. > > > From the technology point of view, it is far more powerful. For > > example, it can contain links, bold text, coloring, embedded images, > > etc. The bulkier than plain text in size, of course, but in today's > > youtube days, this doesn't matter. Also not, if my 10 years old email > > transmission protocol knowledge is not outdated, then email is still > > sent by first converting to a ascii encoding. This is invented by the > > unix folks, which is extremely inefficient. > > > From the social point of view, HTMl is also far more useful, and > > people wants the ability to have colored text, embed images, etc. I > > don't have stats on this, but it is my guess that 80%, or perhaps even > > 90% of email traffics today, are in html. Human animals, collectively, > > want it. > > [...] > It might be old fashioned but I'd prefer the lowest common denominator > in getting my point across varying vintage MUAs in use. And as someone > mentioned earlier, spam is pretty much HTML and I risk getting my mail > binned by someone elses' spam filter. > > And if lighting up the email to get my attention is the reason for > going in for HTML, then someone's trying too hard. > > I've received humongous HTML mails that just had one line of text in > it. The rest were all pictures, templates and other doodads. Most of > Microsoft email clients seem to be ones doing it; though there are > ways to turn it off in them, few seem to do it. Your preference is great. I also, actually prefer plain text email. This shouldn't offset the need to support html mail. If you don't want html mail, you can set up your email app to display plain text only, or at the mail server level. For example, if emacs's rmail support html mail, this thread wouldn't have started. As for spam, it's a different issue as i explained in another email. It is true that most spams are in HTML. However, before HTML became the standard, spams are in plain text with attachement, and before MIME with attachemet becomes popular, spam are just plain text then. Spam simply got worse and worse over the past 20 years i've used email, whatever is the current tech in email. In fact, its probably easier to detect spam in html mail than plain text. (i actually blame the worsening of spam to tech geekers's lack of social understanding. See =E2=80=9CTech geeker vs Spammers=E2=80=9D http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/tech_geekers_vs_spammers.html ) Note here also, that many tech geekers vociferously opposed the MIME standard, saying its bloat. It just happens, and OpenSource tools just adopts it some 5 years later. =C2=ABAnd if lighting up the email to get my attention is the reason for going in for HTML, then someone's trying too hard.=C2=BB Tech geekers like to think that way. But =E2=80=9Clighting up the email=E2= =80=9D is not the primary use of rich text mail. Think of the whole education industry, online commerce, in corporate communication. The need for rich text email is simply a necessacity. Back in 2000, i stopped using emacs rmail, because it simply cannot support the corporate need for email. (at the time, it was the lack of ability to send receive attachment) In a company, they'll send MS Word, diagrams, or whatever that needs to get the point across. Most people in a company, are not techies. e.g. human resource department, graphics department, etc, sometimes including your manager. You cant even begin to tell them =E2=80=9Cwhy are you using html with a single line = of plain text=E2=80=9D? Considered on the whole, it's actually good that way because for htem to spend days to learn about the technical details, is actually a waste of time when the whole company, society, is considered. To force everyone in the world to learn about plain text vs html mail and when it is right to use which, is a unnecessary inefficiency. Another personal story: I needed rich text in email in around ~2002 for my server of =E2=80=9CA Word A Day=E2=80=9D. (it's a mailing list where= i sent out a english word a day. See http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Vocabulary_dir/new.= html ) I need coloring and highlight in the email. I was using Apple's Mail program to send out email. At the time, Apple's Mail program does not support sending out HTML mail. It has a rtf format based rich text instead. However, the rtf formatted mail does not work in yahoo groups. So, the effect is that i couldn't do highlighting. I was in a mac mailing list at the time (lots of mac fanatics). I discussed this... and basically got flamed. (i'm eventually ban'd in the list for basically being too controversial) But now, Apple Mail support HTML, and ditched its rich-text format for email. This essay =E2=80=9CPlain-Text Email Fetish=E2=80=9D http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/plain_text.html was originally one of the post there. Another story: i have a white american friend, who is a philosopher, currently teaching in university. (have several friends who are math professors) These peopple usually don't know shit about programing, but are nevertheless intelligent and knowledgable. This philosophy friend always send me email in html, often with smily icons. I'm like, jesus, Paul, what you have a need to fold the whole email or coloring parts of it? It annoys me. But i can't really say that to him. It's crazy. You can't even begin to tell them what's =E2=80=9Cwrong=E2=80=9D. It= 's like telling your grandma mouse pads not supposed to be coffee mug pads. If you actually spend time on these things, you'll have no time to do anything other thing in life. in terms of modernization, there are many possible improvements with emacs. I wouldn't have suggest support html email in rmail since it's rather a bigger project and hopeless to convience tech geekers. Nobody is actually using rmail for email tese days anyway except a handful of geek clique. I myself stopped using any of the classic plain-text email programs since early 2000. (pine, rmail, vm, gnus, mutt, unix mail) I stopped using them because it just can't do the job anymore, despite whatever ideology that email should be plain text. It is my guess that most professional programers who grew up with these programs, also stopped using them out of necessity. if you think this is a good idea, just send a bug report to gnu then. In emacs, under the menu =E2=80=9CHelp=E2=80=A3Send bug report=E2=80=9D. I'll prob stop discussion this issue. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84